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lunk
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:58 pm Post

devinganger wrote:When you buy software without a subscription, you're buying *the product as it exists at that time*. Just like buying a book, you're compensating for the work that has already gone into the product.

No, not any more. Nowadays developers are supposed to fix bugs relentlessly for years and years, without getting paid any extra for that. Look at Scrivener... The last free update of version 2 was 2.9, right? And how many free updates had there been over the years?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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devinganger
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:19 pm Post

lunk wrote:
devinganger wrote:When you buy software without a subscription, you're buying *the product as it exists at that time*. Just like buying a book, you're compensating for the work that has already gone into the product.

No, not any more. Nowadays developers are supposed to fix bugs relentlessly for years and years, without getting paid any extra for that. Look at Scrivener... The last free update of version 2 was 2.9, right? And how many free updates had there been over the years?


I've said for years that one of the silliest things software companies can do is sell software without having a clearly defined support policy that includes a clear expiration timeline.

Nevertheless, most EULAs are quite clear about what people are ACTUALLY buying vs. what they think they're entitled to.
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Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

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Jolanth Szatmary
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:44 pm Post

Just a quick word regarding the E-Mail syncing solution:

Using the out of the box Apple Mail client, I can mail Scrvener Files (which are actually folders) without any trouble without having to compress them (zip).

And another quick word on Adobe's subscription model:

A lot of long time users like PeterPenguin and myself feel bummed, because we always paid for incremental upgrades, sometimes since decades, The upgrade from, say, CS4 to CS5 was always cheaper than buying CS5 for the first time. So you made an investment and kept putting money into that investment, getting upgrades in return. Very much like Scrivener, only that with Adobe we're talking about thousands and thousands. With the move to a subscription model, that very heavy investment (updating Adobe products for so many years) was suddenly worth nothing. (That wasn't so quick after all ...)

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devinganger
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:59 pm Post

Yeah, I have friends in various niche publishing industries who rely heavily on the Adobe stack, so I've gotten quite an earful of the pros and cons over the years. I don't think Adobe was wrong to switch to subscription, but the *way* they made the switch was pretty heavy-handed.

At the same time, I have enough contacts in the software industry (I'm an IT architect/consultant by trade) to know how massively painful to the bottom line ongoing support issues can be for standalone software products. I also know how badly Adobe's products were targeted by pirating for decades. And at the end of the day, Adobe is a business.
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Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

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Jaysen
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:13 pm Post

devinganger wrote:And at the end of the day, Adobe is a business.

Yep. That's the thing folks tend to forget. There must be sustainable $$ inbound for products to continue.

That said, the subscription model makes more sense for "online" apps than local installs in my opinion. I can see something like the industry standard annual maintenance fees for local installs, but the cripple method... not a fan.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 24 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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devinganger
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:25 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:That said, the subscription model makes more sense for "online" apps than local installs in my opinion. I can see something like the industry standard annual maintenance fees for local installs, but the cripple method... not a fan.


Yeah, complete shut-off is dumb, in my opinion. I can see shutting off support and updates, but let the software already installed keep working.
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Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

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PeterPenguin
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:19 pm Post

But the thing is, from all I can tell about the progress of Photoshop, they have added no new features of any use to me at all. After they added the warp feature to Photoshop, there was nothing left to improve, imho.

I have many professional colleagues who complain about CC because of this - or because it runs worse than the previous standalone version.

So I guess I'm one of the frogs who climbed out of the pan before getting cooked! Lol!

Anyhow, it was fun using Scrivener, which is an excellent software for writing. I'll have to see if Evernote can match it in ease of use.

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scshrugged
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:44 pm Post

PeterPenguin wrote:SNIP

Anyhow, it was fun using Scrivener, which is an excellent software for writing. I'll have to see if Evernote can match it in ease of use.

It sounds that you've made up your mind. Earlier you said you were going to explore using iTunes File Sharing. I think that was introduced in iTunes 9. Regardless, iTunes 11.4 (and others) is available here for OS X 10.6:
https://support.apple.com/downloads/itunes
Good luck.
I'm a Scrivener user, not an L&L employee.

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lunk
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Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:22 pm Post

devinganger wrote:Nevertheless, most EULAs are quite clear about what people are ACTUALLY buying vs. what they think they're entitled to.

You only have to follow some of the threads in this forum to see the truth in that. :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Jot
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Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:16 pm Post

I'm afraid I'm with PeterPenguin on this. I lost my Adobe web apps (Dreamweaver and Fireworks) when I moved to my new iMac (with Sierra). I was spitting nails. Especially when I saw the price of what Adobe* wanted to "upgrade" too (neither app has actually been upgraded since Adobe swallowed up Macromedia - they were just "Apple-ing" - that is, removing the competition). Although it had happened multiple times with my iphone (lost apps or functionality on "upgrade") I somehow didn't expect it with the full OS. I haven't upgrade since and won't. I do patch though.

Anyway, two years (and varying degrees of success with replacement apps) later, I discovered that you can buy the software outright (although, legally it's kinda shaky - maybe) rather than "rent". So I did. From a company that has many names but had excellent support and was super helpful - so not totally dodgy. So, PeterPenguin may be able to get a legal copy of Creative Suite to work on an updated machine after all (the software company will tell you) if he wanted to.

* Adobe and Apple are both on my list as now "more evil than Microsoft". They make me Ragey McRageperson :)
J