About Scrivener 3

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ScriverTid
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:16 pm Post

Ok, here's an idea for Keith (assuming he is his own one-man marketing department...):

Release Scrivener 3 with a name like "Scrivener Plus", or "New Scrivener", or even "Scrivener 64", and charge whatever you were going to charge for it. Make it clear it will ONLY run on 10.13 or higher.

Also sell Scrivener 2 at a reduced rate, maybe call it "Scrivener Classic" or something? Say it will run on 10.6 to 10.12/13 and charge a reduced price for it, say ⅔ of the new version.

You have not been charged for this marketing idea!

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kewms
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:25 pm Post

It's still possible to download both Scrivener 1.54 and Scrivener 2.5 from our site. The upgrade discount from Scrivener 1 still works. We aren't going to abandon current Scrivener 2 users any time soon.

But once Scrivener 3 is released, you shouldn't expect to see any further updates to Scrivener 2, nor will we be selling new Scrivener 2 licenses. We don't have the resources to maintain both codebases, especially as Apple itself moves further and further away from the 32-bit world.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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Graybyrd
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 pm Post

But once Scrivener 3 is released, you shouldn't expect to see any further updates to Scrivener 2, nor will we be selling new Scrivener 2 licenses. We don't have the resources to maintain both codebases, especially as Apple itself moves further and further away from the 32-bit world.


I'm very disappointed to hear that. While I understand the forced upgrade situation, I cannot agree with throwing an established user base on the trash heap by refusing to sell new Scrivener 2 licenses. Assuming that Scriv2 is sufficiently de-bugged and stable, and runs well on existing 32-bit OS & hardware, why take this scorched earth approach? There's no maintenance required for an existing, frozen version... is there? Other than the support offered here on the forums? And the great bulk of that is user supported. Perhaps the only burden to L&L is setting up a new Scriv3 section, and maintaining the existing Scriv2 forum sections. Or will we see the existing Scriv2 topic sections frozen, too?

I've several times been delighted to find that "legacy" versions of essential software remain available for download, and can be licensed as needed. I'm currently running several of those. Do NOT assume that everybody will throw perfectly good investments in software and hardware on the trash heap simply to keep pace with each new Apple and Microsoft shiny-shiny version that costs like hell and offers little productivity improvements for average users, other than massive headaches coping with new incompatibilities, bugs, and confusing user interface twists and changes.

Essentially, this means I cannot recommend Scrivener 2 to acquaintances who, like me, elect to remain with 32-bit hardware that has a number of years additional useful life. If they cannot purchase a license for it, then it simply no longer exists. I have no bone to pick with those on the forced upgrade march; but I do feel a bit 'tossed off' by being, essentially, dumped and abandoned.

Sadly, goodbye.
On my honor, I will do my best not to do anything unlawful, infringing, disruptive, harmful, threatening, abusive, tortious, defamatory, libelous, lewd, profane, obscene, hateful or otherwise objectionable. Pinky Promise. :mrgreen:

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Jaysen
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:40 am Post

Not sure you are reading the L&L position correctly. Legacy versions ARE available for download. But you need to buy a current version license to use it. Meaning not discounted. I beleive that a v3 license can be used with v2 but L&L will need to confirm.

While I understand your position I don't think your approach is productive. But maybe I'm too easily offended myself ;)
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 24 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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randybisig
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:43 am Post

Failing to stay out of the flame war that started, I gotta say that holding onto the past will only keep you from improving. This was felt by those who held onto their floppy disk PCs instead of moving on to CD-Rs (recordable CDs) or moving on from a removable disc and onto USB Drives.

Granted, not everyone has the funds to buy the most recent shiny new thing.
Let's just hope what you have now does all that you want to do.

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kewms
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:38 am Post

Graybyrd wrote:
But once Scrivener 3 is released, you shouldn't expect to see any further updates to Scrivener 2, nor will we be selling new Scrivener 2 licenses. We don't have the resources to maintain both codebases, especially as Apple itself moves further and further away from the 32-bit world.


I'm very disappointed to hear that. While I understand the forced upgrade situation, I cannot agree with throwing an established user base on the trash heap by refusing to sell new Scrivener 2 licenses. Assuming that Scriv2 is sufficiently de-bugged and stable, and runs well on existing 32-bit OS & hardware, why take this scorched earth approach? There's no maintenance required for an existing, frozen version... is there? Other than the support offered here on the forums? And the great bulk of that is user supported. Perhaps the only burden to L&L is setting up a new Scriv3 section, and maintaining the existing Scriv2 forum sections. Or will we see the existing Scriv2 topic sections frozen, too?


Huh?

If you are part of the existing user base then, by definition, you have a Scrivener 2 license already. You can download Scrivener 2 whenever you want, for as long as your hardware supports it. Both this forum and our support address will continue to work. So exactly what is the issue here?

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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kewms
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:39 am Post

Jaysen wrote:Not sure you are reading the L&L position correctly. Legacy versions ARE available for download. But you need to buy a current version license to use it. Meaning not discounted. I beleive that a v3 license can be used with v2 but L&L will need to confirm.


No, a version 3 license cannot be used with version 2. (Nor can a version 2 license be used with version 1.) Since the project formats are incompatible, why would you want to?

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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lunk
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:58 am Post

Katherine,

you're missing one essential point of Graybyrd's post.

Graybyrd wrote:Essentially, this means I cannot recommend Scrivener 2 to acquaintances who, like me, elect to remain with 32-bit hardware that has a number of years additional useful life. If they cannot purchase a license for it, then it simply no longer exists.


Existing version 2 users will not be abandoned but there will be no new version 2 users once the version 3 is out, right? And this is what makes those that stay on version 2 the feeling that they are abandoned.

Personally I think one has to accept that the world changes over time and that technical development makes previous technical solutions obsolete. But what's special with computers and software is the speed of the change. Still, from an evolutionary and developmental perspective it's logical that a software developer wants to develop the software. Freezing it means stagnation which is the opposite of development. And for most businesses, development is crucial for long-term survival.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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kewms
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:01 am Post

lunk wrote:Existing version 2 users will not be abandoned but there will be no new version 2 users once the version 3 is out, right? And this is what makes those that stay on version 2 the feeling that they are abandoned.


I see your point.

On the other hand, how many people (a) might buy Scrivener at some point, but (b) haven't yet, and (c) will only do so if it will run on obsolete (pre-2010) hardware? And of those, how many will end up upgrading to Sierra-compatible hardware anyway for other reasons within the next six months or so?

Katherine
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lunk
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:03 am Post

I agree completely, hence my concluding paragraph.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Jaysen
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:58 am Post

K, my interpretation, likely incorrect, was that a new user COULD do v2 and use it. But they would not be able to pitches a v2 license from esellerate. I assumed that L&L provided a method for v2 code to operate permanently with the v3 license key. In rereading the posts I see that I missed a few points about that and that there will be no new usage if v2 codebase.

As a guy who hates to buy new hardware, I do get the resistance to is upgrade. But the sticking with old things means that you don't get the same support as you would with the new. Ex, finding anyone to work on my 1975 MG is almost an exercise in finding hens teeth. Sometimes you just need to upgrade to new platforms.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 24 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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ScriverTid
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:11 am Post

randybisig wrote:Failing to stay out of the flame war that started, I gotta say that holding onto the past will only keep you from improving. This was felt by those who held onto their floppy disk PCs instead of moving on to CD-Rs (recordable CDs) or moving on from a removable disc and onto USB Drives.

Granted, not everyone has the funds to buy the most recent shiny new thing.
Let's just hope what you have now does all that you want to do.

Ok, I'm provoked by this! The changes in hardware you mention encompass a 35-year timespan, assuming you regard USB as the current standard!

As for the "most recent shiny new thing", this is also not relevant to the discussion. I run a 2011 Core i5 iMac with extra RAM that is quite capable of running Sierra, High Sierra, Pixar, Disney, or whatever the next MacOS (aka OS X) is going to be called. My reasons for staying with Mavericks are entirely software-based, not hardware. I have used Macs since 1994, and while I can still run MS-DOS, System 7, OS 8.6, and Snow Leopard on my computer to either run old software e.g. games, or simply nostalgically wallow in former experiences using Macs, plus I also have software like Dragon Dictate that would require £00's to upgrade beyond Mavericks, and going past 10.9 would force me to use iTunes 11 or later (euwww) ... I really do not think that the current annual release cycle of MacOS does any service to Mac users. Hell, there are people who still run Windows 7 (from nearly 10 years ago) rather than upgrade to Windows 10 which has been around a few years itself. "Tiger" and "Leopard" were MAJOR OS X releases that introduced hundreds of changes. Yet those two were the only OS releases between Panther (2003) and Snow Leopard (2009). By contrast, the latest MacOS annual releases are rushed and buggy, and rarely achieve their full potential before the next cycle appears. Nor have they contained many major new features - you almost get the impression that Apple struggle to dream up enough features to make users want to upgrade. (I can see the value in annual iOS changes - that's only 10 years old and the hardware is still changing more rapidly than Macs are).

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ScriverTid
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:14 am Post

kewms wrote:On the other hand, how many people (a) might buy Scrivener at some point, but (b) haven't yet, and (c) will only do so if it will run on obsolete (pre-2010) hardware? And of those, how many will end up upgrading to Sierra-compatible hardware anyway for other reasons within the next six months or so?

No. You're talking ONLY about hardware. The point I was making was about SOFTWARE. My 2011 Mac could easily run Sierra but I choose to stay with Mavericks (see my post above).

What you should be asking is how many people (a) might buy Scrivener at some point, but (b) haven't yet, and (c) will only do so if it runs on earlier versions of the Mac OS?

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KB
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:28 am Post

Very few software companies continue to sell an older version of their software when a new version is out. Scrivener 3 is the future of Scrivener - it is "Scrivener" pure and simple, the best version of it to date, not "Scrivener Plus" or "Scrivener 64" or anything else. No one will be forced to upgrade. Scrivener 2 will continue to work forever on all the platforms it has ever supported, up to and including High Sierra, and you'll be able to download it from our site for many years to come. So accusations of us throwing an established user base on the trash are unfair and ungrounded. If you decide to update to the OS that comes after High Sierra, you will need to buy Scrivener 3, but that's user choice and to be expected. We will continue to support users of Scrivener 2 - we just won't be selling it any more because it will be superseded by Scrivener 3, just as we no longer sell Scrivener 1.

As for running on earlier versions of macOS, that's a trade-off we had to make to set us in good stead for the future. In the short term we might be limiting ourselves a little, since only around 50% of Mac users use the latest OS, but supporting libraries older than Sierra has negative implications and within a couple of years that percentage will be up. We had to make a choice about how to ensure Scrivener is geared up for the next ten years, and it's better for us and for our users if we are building off the most recent platform when releasing a brand new version, rather than starting out the gate with compromises caused by legacy code. A brand new version is one of the main opportunities to shed such legacy code.

I don't disagree about Apple rushing out yearly macOS updates (I'd prefer they still did them every two or three years and made them more stable - the current convention seems more about building hype each year than providing a truly solid base for users and developers, but users seem to like it and that's out of our hands). However, Scrivener 2 has been supported on over ten different iterations of macOS, from 10.4 up to and including 10.13. That's a lot more than most software. Now it's time for us to move on to the next phase. Fortunately, outside of this thread, most users seem to be excited about that. :)
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

Ki
Kinsey
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:49 pm Post

The complaints on this thread baffle me. When have L&L ever abandoned their user base, or given the impression they ever will? Are people really getting bent out of shape because this company is planning for 10 years down the road? Incredible. Having written two books in Scrivener and many other smaller items, I hope that I am still using it in 10 years

The business plan seems to me to be perfectly sound. I still use MS Office for Mac 2011. It's still supported. But MS won't sell it to me on their website. Fair enough

 

 

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