How to use bibliography and references?

mb
mbbntu
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:27 pm Post

osm wrote:You refer to a number of Mac-only reference managers which exclusively use temp citations / RTF scan. I think this situation is largely driven by the fact that Pages does not support 3rd party plugins so many Mac users have had little choice but to get along with this method of citation insertion.


I have a slightly different view. To judge from your punctuation, you are writing from America :wink: where I suspect that MS and EndNote are widely used because colleges and universities provide them, or make it possible to obtain cheap licences. The situation is slightly different in the UK. MS Word is still widespread, but EndNote seems to have much less of a hold (it used to be supported by a fairly small company in Hertfordshire -- I don't know if it still is). The other point is that not all of us are thirty years old :wink: . When I started writing on a computer it was an Amstrad PCW, and I used LocoScript (yes, really) then Protext. There was no such thing as a bibliography manager. Then in 1993 I began using a Mac, with Word 5 and EndNote. CWYW had probably never even been imagined then -- no computer could possibly have coped with it. So we all got used to using temporary citations. There wasn't anything else. When CWYW arrived I tried it and hated it (it must have been a good ten years ago, but I don't remember clearly). It slowed everything to a crawl. In any case, EndNote was driving me mad, so when I found I could ditch it for Bookends (huge sigh of relief) the passing of CWYW went completely unnoticed by me. In fact, I don't think I would use it if you paid me now -- I find it an annoyance, not a help. And it would oblige me to use a bibliography manager that I dislike. But then again, I don't do collaborative working (though that may have to change soon).

Cheers, Martin.
You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

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xiamenese
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Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:12 am Post

I'm a Bookends user too — I have trialled Sente, both when I was first looking for a bibliography manager and when the latest version came out, but on neither occasion felt comfortable with it, whereas I immediately knew where I was with Bookends — and will look at Zotero with the purpose of being able to advise our postgraduate students in Xiamen who know nothing of bibliography management. I've never used Endnote or CWYW. Given the nature of a Scrivener project, I would foresee all sorts of issues with CWYW, which are obviated by the temporary citation system, and RTF scan — either from within NWP, or Mellel, I believe — or using Bookends itself to do it, has never been a problem.

As to working collaboratively with Bookends, Martin, if you are heading that way and your collaborators are using Macs and Bookends, you can put your Bookends database files in a folder on Dropbox — backing up to your HD, of course — and share that folder with your collaborator(s). That way, you're all using the same bibliography database.

Mark
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br
brunus
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Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:52 pm Post

Hi guys,
I've tested many ref managers (EndNote, Sente, Bookends, Zotero) and I liked Zotero best:: it's free, it's crossplatform, it's versatile in the kind of info it can munch, yet it has it's drawbacks when used with scrivener as you have well pointed out through this thread. One limitation that bothers me particularly is that I can't add "see also" or "ch. #" instead of "p.##" within the inline citation using the rtf-scan syntax. Thus suppose I want to have the following result after the RTF-scan: (Author1, 2008, p. 56; see also Author2, 2010, ch. 3). This is how I do:
  • I write and use the Zotero syntax: bla bla bla {Author1, YEAR, p#} see also {Auhor2, YEAR}, ch. 3)
  • I compile the draft as DRAFT.rtf
  • I scan it with rtf-scan into DRAFT(Scanned).rtf
  • What I get is: (Author1, 2008, p. 56) see also (Author2, 2010), ch. 3)
  • In Word I built a simple find&replace macro that replaces all the

    Code: Select all

    ) see also (
    with

    Code: Select all

    ; see also
    and similarly

    Code: Select all

    ), ch.
    with

    Code: Select all

    , ch.
    and so on for any other unconventional expression you want to add. I refine the macro when I see the special case I've written does not fit.

I understand this is not superelegant as a workaround, but hey, this is what I can do with my technical means being no developer.

I hope it's helpful.

ha
harryhoffner
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Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:42 pm Post

howardtheduck wrote:Now, I'm not sure how difficult it is to implement something like that, nor do I know how big would be the payoff, since the way Scrivener works with Bookends already works fine (that main difference--for me at least--is really the palette and the citation object).


As someone who has used Mellel and Bookends for a book-length ms with loads of notes, I can tell you that the palette proves unhelpful if you have several citations in it by the same author and year. I found myself skipping the palette and simply dragging the refs in from Bookends' own window.

jm
jmsthornton
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:20 am Post

I too am a Scrivener (for windows) and Zotero user. I have invested years of building a bibliographic database into Zotero and am unwilling to give it up for something that works with my equally beloved Scrivener. I'd just love something which took a few steps out of my copy-and-paste-and-reformat-and-tidy-after-compile workflow and which also circumvented their RTF scan method which they admit does not work well.
Here's what Zotero are saying.
___________
mronkko
Aug 14th 2012

"If scrivener provides a programming interface, a plugin for Zotero will eventually be written by someone. If Scrivener does not provide a programming interface, plugin is not possible. So the ball is on the Scrivener end here. (Same can be said about Pages) " http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/180 ... scrivener/
__________
So how about it Scrivener developers? Takes the onus off you!

pe
perherman
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:13 pm Post

When I add a reference using Zotero syntax: {Schäfer, 2007} and further down in the page: {Kelly, 2000} and run the Zotero RTF Scan I get:


In the text: xxxx Schäfer, Jesus in the Talmud. and later YYYYYYY Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines.


on the bottom of the page:

Kelly, J. N. D. Early Christian Doctrines. London; New York: Continuum, 2000.
Schäfer, Peter. Jesus in the Talmud. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 2007.


Why do I not get a citation numbering, i.e. 1) and 2)

How do I get a Bibliography?

Per-Olof

mb
mbbntu
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Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:36 am Post

These are really questions for the Zotero forums. Scrivener has no control over what Zotero is doing when it does an RTF scan. I don't use Zotero, so I can't offer any advice on that, but generally with bibliographic software you really need to compile the whole manuscript in Scrivener, scan the resulting rtf file, then sort out the final formatting in a word processor, which will allow you to decide whether you want footnotes or endnotes, and where to place the bibliography. So sorting out references, etc., is the last stage in the writing process. At least, it works for me!

Martin.
You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

br
brunus
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Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:05 pm Post

Hello guys,
did anyone managed to find a practical enoughway to disambiguate citations "same author same year", when using RTF-Scan syntax in Scrivener?
I've been going thru scrivener and zotero fora for the last 4 hours and testing in vain so far.

thanks for any hints

mb
mbbntu
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Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:18 pm Post

When I used Endnote and Bookends, I always used the unique ID nr. of the item as part of the temporary citation (e.g. {Smith, 2006 #34182} or some such). I've never really used Zotero, so I don't know if it automatically generates unique IDs (as Endnote does) nor if there is any facility for using them at all. But I would have thought something of the sort was the best way to go.

Martin.
You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

mr
mronkko
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:29 pm Post

My post from Zotero forums was quoted here. I have contributed patches to Zotero and am the author of ZoteroQuickLook (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefo ... quicklook/) that interfaces with Zotero and also the Zotero Mac Word plugin.

So here is what an integration would require from the Scrivener side. The Zotero word processor plugins are quite small because most of the logic is located in Zotero itself. Basically the plugins just feature code for reading information about the document and about a field in the current cursor position and code for writing this information. So something similar to Word fields and a way to access them from another process would be required. And of course a button that moves the focus to Zotero and tells it to activate the citation dialog. But all this can be really generic and then a small amount of integration code would suffice to create a Scrivener plugin for Zotero.

I am looking for a replacement for Word on Mac and Zotero compatibility is a deal breaker for me. I would also be ready to do some coding myself to get a nice integration between Zotero and Scrivener.

mb
mbbntu
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:28 pm Post

I would have thought it would be best to approach Keith directly via email or PM rather than through the forums. Then you can have a private discussion about what is possible.

Cheers, Martin.
You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

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phenomenologie
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Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:59 pm Post

OMG, thank you mronkko!! PLEASE. scrivener and zotero would be a match made in heaven, I can see it now... :P

ma
manicolaus
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Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:49 am Post

Second the motion! :!:

jl
jlg
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 am Post

desperately longing for… so +1
:roll:

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xiamenese
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Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:52 am Post

phenomenologie wrote:OMG, thank you mronkko!! PLEASE. scrivener and zotero would be a match made in heaven, I can see it now... :P

Only if Zotero is your idea of heaven! :lol:

Mark
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
iMac 27" (late 2015) 10.15.6, 24GB RAM, 512GB SSID
MBP17" (late 2011) 10.13.6, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSID
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