Scrivener users, where do you backup your files?

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:52 am Post

Here's how the Backblaze trial is going so far:

Backblaze.png
Backblaze.png (887.61 KiB) Viewed 263 times
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2677
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272
Contact:

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:06 am Post

drmajorbob wrote:In that sense

[snip a bunch of spurious stuff that isn't really the same thing at all so why the heck did you bring it all up like it was relevant?]

A lot of them can't find their zip backups, but I don't say they're not backups because of it.


I really thought better of you. That's not even middle school debate team-level argument skills; that's just sour grapes at being called out on the details and assumptions you're making that aren't universal. You weren't right about some details -- that just makes you human like the rest of us, bro.

You have one particular twisty set of use cases that you've been able to cobble together to make Dropbox plus the rest of your workflow work like backups *for you* and that's awesome. There's no shame in admitting that you're a power user and that what works for you is not universal for the rest of the users here.

Something like Backblaze is actually going to work a lot better for many users precisely because the interface is designed to interact backups in a more traditional way, just like Time Machine, or Windows Backup, or any of the other host of programs out there that take discrete point-in-time copies of data *and treat them as backups.* Which Dropbox can be cajoled to do (if you really know what you're doing) but does not do easily. And if you already know how to do it, you already know the dangers involved...

Lowest common denominator here so everyone gets to keep their data, yes?
--
Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2677
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272
Contact:

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:19 am Post

drmajorbob wrote: iCloud sync is a problem because synchronicity fails for the various parts of a project. How do we know Backblaze doesn't have that problem?


Backblaze isn't doing anything unique that other backup programs don't do. On Linux and MacOS, you don't generally have volume-level snapshots without using exotic filesystem options, and the consumer version of Backblaze explicitly doesn't try to support such technologies (even on Windows, where Volume Shadow Copy Service is largely ubiquitous in modern systems that use the NTFS filesystem.) But Backblaze is one vendor -- if you don't like it and don't trust it, don't use it. There are others. Backblaze, and other traditional backup programs, usually only have problems with files that have been opened exclusively for writing, and most of them (including Backblaze) will retry problem files until that exclusivity lock is gone and they can read it and process it. Backup programs treat your collection of files as data sets, not as individual files that will all be synchronized ASAP (like Dropbox and other sync engines do.)

Nobody is making the claim that Dropbox is not a backup solution because of the presence or lack of synchronicity, so that's a strawman anyway. The synchronicity issue affects your ability to keep multiple copies of your data roughly in sync, and for a cloud backup program, *that's not the problem you're trying to sove.*
--
Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:13 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
drmajorbob wrote: iCloud sync is a problem because synchronicity fails for the various parts of a project. How do we know Backblaze doesn't have that problem?


It's not about whether I trust Backblaze or not ... but you didn't answer my question. Is Backblaze more reliable than iCloud for saving projects? Does anyone know?

Back to the facts, not opinion, I've restored hundreds of gigabytes from Dropbox, so I know it's a backup. You're touting a technical definition of "backup" at odds with the practical English meaning of it. This discussion doesn't matter a whit either way, but I have an allergy to folks redefining words at random.

With that, I'll apologize for being needlessly contentious and drop it.
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:49 pm Post

Maybe this would be a better question for BackBlaze support?

The difference between a "backup" service and a "synchronization" service is right there in the name.

A backup is a static archive, preserving the state of the system on the backup date. If I want to have BackBlaze send me everything that was on my disk on January 1, 2019, I can. (Details dependent on your subscription.)

A synchronization service strives to give all connected devices current and identical copies of the synchronized documents. Versioning features, where they exist at all, are secondary to that goal. Details are again dependent on your subscription, but even the Dropbox Pro account only goes back 180 days.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:03 pm Post

kewms wrote:Maybe this would be a better question for BackBlaze support?

Katherine

Do you think Backblaze knows what their continuous backup does to an open Scrivener project? If we're talking about a scheduled backup, that's a different story, but Backblaze defaulted to continuous backup, and I don't see a way to schedule it for a safer time. Their interface is sparse to the max! Backblaze is just an example, of course.

I have no reason to think continuous backup is significantly different from synchronization.
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4487
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:32 pm Post

drmajorbob wrote:Do you think Backblaze knows what their continuous backup does to an open Scrivener project?

We’re talking about saving backups, which is a static copy of a project at a specific time, and not live open projects.
Is that where you get lost in the discussion?
I save my Scrivener backups in a folder that is synced to a cloud service, but the whole folder is also backed up using TimeMachine.
The OP asked specifically where we keep our backups, not where have our live active projects.
Keeping backups in a cloud synced folder means that I have copies of those backups on all my Macs and also on all their respective TimeMachines.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:30 pm Post

drmajorbob wrote:
kewms wrote:Maybe this would be a better question for BackBlaze support?

Katherine

Do you think Backblaze knows what their continuous backup does to an open Scrivener project? If we're talking about a scheduled backup, that's a different story, but Backblaze defaulted to continuous backup, and I don't see a way to schedule it for a safer time. Their interface is sparse to the max! Backblaze is just an example, of course.

I have no reason to think continuous backup is significantly different from synchronization.


If a file is inaccessible, BackBlaze tries again.

One of the most important differences between backup (continuous or not) and synchronization is that BackBlaze doesn't come along and *change* your local copy because it thinks it's out of date. Dropbox et. al. do that *by design.*

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:38 pm Post

lunk wrote:
drmajorbob wrote:Do you think Backblaze knows what their continuous backup does to an open Scrivener project?

We’re talking about saving backups, which is a static copy of a project at a specific time, and not live open projects.
Is that where you get lost in the discussion?
I save my Scrivener backups in a folder that is synced to a cloud service, but the whole folder is also backed up using TimeMachine.
The OP asked specifically where we keep our backups, not where have our live active projects.
Keeping backups in a cloud synced folder means that I have copies of those backups on all my Macs and also on all their respective TimeMachines.

There IS no static copy of a project when the project is open. Where did you lose the thread? Backblaze is set for continuous backup at my machine, and I don't see another option (though it may exist).

I also backup to Time Machine — and to another drive with ChronoSync. Dropbox is not my only backup, but it is a backup — particularly when it saves my my zip backups in Dropbox. I have those backups in the cloud and on 5 Macs in the house, and they're easier to retrieve than in Time Machine.
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:45 pm Post

kewms wrote:If a file is inaccessible, BackBlaze tries again.

One of the most important differences between backup (continuous or not) and synchronization is that BackBlaze doesn't come along and *change* your local copy because it thinks it's out of date. Dropbox et. al. do that *by design.*

Katherine

Does BackBlaze (or another backup service) consider the entire project inaccessible if it's open, hence it won't make the same mistake iCloud has in the past? Does it respect the package structure in that way?
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:48 pm Post

Would it do the same for a Scrivener folder on Windows? Consider all of it inaccessible until everything is closed?
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:10 pm Post

I found an answer to those questions. Backblaze treats a package the same as any other folder, so I would not trust it with open projects.

https://help.backblaze.com/hc/en-us/articles/217665608-How-Does-Backblaze-Deal-With-Mac-OS-X-Packages-
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:44 pm Post

Consider this post: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66323

If the poster has been making zipped backups right along, then recovering the project will be *trivial*, and words lost will be equal to those written since the last backup was made. This is because a zipped backup is a static snapshot of data, hence a *true* backup.

However, if the poster's only 'backup' is that his project's on Dropbox...well, who can say? It's possible he might be able to put it back together again. Then again, maybe not. All he can do is roll up his sleeves and try. This is because Dropbox is a *syncing service*, not a true backup.

I wish that poster the best, and hope he's been making zipped backups right along.
I’m just a customer.

User avatar
drmajorbob
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:38 am
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:52 pm Post

JimRac wrote:Consider this post: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66323

If the poster has been making zipped backups right along, then recovering the project will be *trivial*, and words lost will be equal to those written since the last backup was made. This is because a zipped backup is a static snapshot of data, hence a *true* backup.

However, if the poster's only 'backup' is that his project's on Dropbox...well, who can say? It's possible he might be able to put it back together again. Then again, maybe not. All he can do is roll up his sleeves and try. This is because Dropbox is a *syncing service*, not a true backup.

I wish that poster the best, and hope he's been making zipped backups right along.

The poster should have zip backups in Dropbox or any other cloud service + another backup like ChronoSync or Time Machine. It's not an either/or situation. Zip backups with unique names are a static backup in Dropbox. Did someone forget their belt and suspenders and get in trouble? Well, that's a scenario no one should opt for anyway.
Teeth, without gums, fall loosely in the mouth.

(I'm not a Literature & Latte employee. Just another user.)

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:56 pm Post

drmajorbob wrote:I found an answer to those questions. Backblaze treats a package the same as any other folder, so I would not trust it with open projects.

https://help.backblaze.com/hc/en-us/articles/217665608-How-Does-Backblaze-Deal-With-Mac-OS-X-Packages-


What does "trust" mean in this case?

The whole point of a continuous backup is that it's checking for updated files all the time. As soon as I close an application -- whether Scrivener or anything else -- the changed files get queued for backup. (In practice, I find BackBlaze runs about every fifteen minutes.)

Making a reliable backup of a file that's actively being edited is fairly challenging for any application. If that's your use case, I would recommend enabling Scrivener's "backup on manual save" option. That creates a static archive at whatever interval you choose, and then the static archive can itself be backed up by Dropbox, Time Machine, BackBlaze, or whatever tools you prefer.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team