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Astaff
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:30 am Post

Yes, Katherine, the latest updates are powerful. Do you think Apple will keep multiple OSes going for long if it does produce a low-end Arm Mac that satisfies a lot of users? Is the Intel Mac market large enough to command focus?


Think back to the PowerPC to Intel transition. They managed that (largely) without fuss. That points to Apple being able to run the same OS on two platforms. Microsoft are trying same with ARM Windows machines though with less success using 32 but only emulation and compatibility problems. Expect Apple to do it full 64 bit all the way and pretty much seamlessly.

I’ll break from Katherine in saying I expect (if it happens) the ARM processors to start bottom end but to also cover up to the lower end of Pro.

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Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:58 am Post

Thanks, Katherine, for the detailed replies.

I comprehend the need for content-creation tools beyond what iOS-based platforms currently offer, and true multitasking is a must for many people in the way you describe. And I don’t doubt that Apple needs to offer powerhouse devices (though it allowed the Mac Pro to languish for so long), but I believe Apple’s intention is to do that using chips it develops, rather than relying on Intel; with iOS as the core building block, not macOS as we know it.

Safe to deduce from what you have written that if Apple can produce an Arm-based Mac that can run an OS with capabilities similar to those seen in macOS that you would embrace such a device?

My contact field is narrow: people in the arts (writers, actors, singers, directors, etc) who use their devices to plan or plot or produce or communicate, rather than output work. I prefer using MacBooks, but my partner has transitioned over the last year to writing exclusively on an iPad Pro (the Magic Keyboard, Apple Pencil, and cursor input were the final nails in the once-beloved iMac’s coffin). I know my experience is atypical, but the people in my frame of reference who were using towers or desktops or laptops five or ten years ago have all pretty much transitioned away from the larger devices, certainly the towers and desktops, and increasingly away from the laptops as well. It feels as if the tide is running in one direction ... as Steve Jobs pointed out, not everyone needs a truck.

Thanks so much for sharing and explaining. WWDC should be an interesting watch this year.

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Jaysen
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:02 am Post

Computers are like cameras. Just because every second "device" out there has one, it doesn't mean that no one needs a large formate film based box. There will ALWAYS be a marker for mocOS based "power machines. But they will get more expensive and be the realm of specialty users. Kind of like MocOS is today...
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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kewms
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:54 pm Post

Login wrote:Safe to deduce from what you have written that if Apple can produce an Arm-based Mac that can run an OS with capabilities similar to those seen in macOS that you would embrace such a device?


Sure. As a user, I care what a system can do, not what chips it has.

Now, I also think it would be foolish to believe that Intel will go quietly. They made some concessions to Apple to get the Mac business in the first place, and will probably be willing to go to significant lengths to keep it. As I said, Apple's latest "Pro" devices suggest a commitment to Intel for at least the life of this hardware platform.

Katherine
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kewms
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:56 pm Post

Astaff wrote:I’ll break from Katherine in saying I expect (if it happens) the ARM processors to start bottom end but to also cover up to the lower end of Pro.


That's a marketing decision more than a design decision. Given an ARM-based box with X capabilities, what label do you stick on it?

Katherine
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kewms
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:04 pm Post

Login wrote:My contact field is narrow: people in the arts (writers, actors, singers, directors, etc) who use their devices to plan or plot or produce or communicate, rather than output work. I prefer using MacBooks, but my partner has transitioned over the last year to writing exclusively on an iPad Pro (the Magic Keyboard, Apple Pencil, and cursor input were the final nails in the once-beloved iMac’s coffin). I know my experience is atypical, but the people in my frame of reference who were using towers or desktops or laptops five or ten years ago have all pretty much transitioned away from the larger devices, certainly the towers and desktops, and increasingly away from the laptops as well. It feels as if the tide is running in one direction ... as Steve Jobs pointed out, not everyone needs a truck.


Back when coffee shops were a thing -- you know, January -- most of the people I saw working in coffee shops were using laptops. At conferences, my iPad + external keyboard combination is still rare enough that people ask me about it.

Katherine
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Jaysen
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:40 pm Post

kewms wrote:
Login wrote:My contact field is narrow: people in the arts (writers, actors, singers, directors, etc) who use their devices to plan or plot or produce or communicate, rather than output work. I prefer using MacBooks, but my partner has transitioned over the last year to writing exclusively on an iPad Pro (the Magic Keyboard, Apple Pencil, and cursor input were the final nails in the once-beloved iMac’s coffin). I know my experience is atypical, but the people in my frame of reference who were using towers or desktops or laptops five or ten years ago have all pretty much transitioned away from the larger devices, certainly the towers and desktops, and increasingly away from the laptops as well. It feels as if the tide is running in one direction ... as Steve Jobs pointed out, not everyone needs a truck.


Back when coffee shops were a thing -- you know, January -- most of the people I saw working in coffee shops were using laptops. At conferences, my iPad + external keyboard combination is still rare enough that people ask me about it.

Katherine

Spend time with more "sales" people in the "enterprise" space. They have no idea what the systems do, but they all have iPads with keyboards and can send you email from any place in the planet!

Most of them are actually pretty savvy about the capabilities but nearly all the folks I know that are using tablet style devices are in sales. The medical community WAS looking like the first real adopters of tablets to replace nearly all input but that seems to have fallen off in the last 2 years. I know my wife has transitioned 100% to an iPad for her "stuff" which can be summed as "email, web, media" with no real compute/graphic needs. And I think that's the key for most tablet users.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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kewms
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:11 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:Most of them are actually pretty savvy about the capabilities but nearly all the folks I know that are using tablet style devices are in sales. The medical community WAS looking like the first real adopters of tablets to replace nearly all input but that seems to have fallen off in the last 2 years. I know my wife has transitioned 100% to an iPad for her "stuff" which can be summed as "email, web, media" with no real compute/graphic needs. And I think that's the key for most tablet users.


That's largely what I use mine for, too. -- Katherine
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devinganger
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Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:36 pm Post

kewms wrote:Sure. As a user, I care what a system can do, not what chips it has.


That's not true for all users. Intel has pretty thoroughly shot themselves in the foot for quite a while with the corners they've cut over the years that are coming back in the form of all of these chip-level security flaws, and the mitigations thereof that sacrifice much of the speed gains Intel chips boast. That, combined with AMD managing to figure their issues out and offer a strong alternative, has the potentially to really change the landscape in the CPU market. I know a lot of users who would have happily bought a Mac who now are staying far away from any Intel processor, even those that aren't affected by the flaws, because they feel they can no longer trust Intel's design process. That means no more MacOS devices -- it's either Linux or Windows on AMD Ryzen processors, or lower-power ARM devices.

Getting ARM + iOS to the point where it can do what Intel + MacOS can do today is still a mutli-year investment, and I hope that Apple figured out that just letting product lines lie fallow doesn't do them or their customers any good, so it makes sense to fill in the gaps for now even as you work on breaking that dependency in the future.
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