Anyone submitted a Scrivener outline in query?

[tim]

No, no. You're clamoring out of the thread. I can hear you from here.
(and Keith is clamouring)



Best,

T

[Sean Coffee]

1. I'd like to point out that my post re popcorn's post was in no way an endorsement the current state of the screenplay submission process. Is it absurd? Yes. Do Neil Labute and David Mamet write their movie scripts in "accepted" format? Yes.

2. That said, popcorn's post remains right on the money. I'd hate to see someone spend weeks and months writing a script, only to undermine their efforts with an "amateurish" presentation. Listen to popcorn, he knows what he's talking about.

3. I don't know why all this surprises anyone. Hollywood is fairly famous for their adherence to "the way things are done." From the people who brought you the "franchise film", the re-make, the horror movie that's EXACTLY 90 minutes long, the historical drama that's always pushing three hours... hell, from the people who brought you the phrase "from the people who brought you." In Los Angeles, same is good, different is bad, and almost no one smokes cigarettes. Why I live here is beyond me.

4. Yes, most of the You Too Can Write A Screenplay! cottage industry is indeed... I was going to say "a scam that turns a noble craft into something akin to the lottery", but let's just leave it at "based more in fantasy than reality." And yes, the Writer's Store does sell a lot of that stuff -- including an $18 pad of paper that's set up with lines that duplicate proper screenplay margins (yikes!). But the people at the Store are awfully nice, extremely helpful, and they do carry a lot of very worthwhile merchandise. I'd hate for them to be mad at me.

5. Keith, Scrivener has exactly the right amount of screenplay functionality -- enough to allow screenwriters to work in this excellent environment. Thanks for including us. Don't change a thing.

[popcornflix]

As far as the hard right margin is concerned, this may happen sooner, but page break indications will not happen.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for luck. Slows down my typing, tho.

[popcornflix]

Listen to popcorn, he knows what he's talking about.

The temptation to make this my signature line is almost overwhelming.

[AmberV]

In Los Angeles, same is good, different is bad, and almost no one smokes cigarettes.

That is, of course, because the air is so imbued with toxins that the necessity of smoking a cigarette effectively drops to zero.

[spinningdoc]

popcorn's post remains right on the money

It does indeed, if you're aiming for Hollywood. My reaction was a mix of appalledness (?) at the concept that using the wrong kind of paper fastener will get your script rejected out of hand, that Hollywood is such a production line that writers get further by conforming to the nth degree unto the tiniest, most irrelevant detail than being funny, wise, or engaging, and that you don't have a choice.

I did know all this of course - I brought up brads in the first place - but I was just having a holy f*** moment.

The other point to remember is that in the UK at least, honestly, brads, margins, lines per page, even fonts, FFS, honestly don't matter. I just checked out the BBC's Writer's Room sample scripts. There are loads of different formats, any one of which would give Cole and Haag the vapours. Don't let the format Nazis stop you actually writing... (and popcorn, I'm not calling you a format Nazi. You're just being professional for your market, I know).

Scrivener has exactly the right amount of screenplay functionality

Yep, I agree completely. The only thing I've felt the lack of yet is a kind of 'reverse edit Scrivenings'. I cut and pasted a Word script into Scriv, and it would be nice to be able to be able to say 'turn each scene into a section' (based on sluglines). But that's not really much of an inconvenience.

In Los Angeles, same is good, different is bad, and almost no one smokes cigarettes.


That is, of course, because the air is so imbued with toxins that the necessity of smoking a cigarette effectively drops to zero.

Demonstrating yet again that LA is wrong on so many levels.

[dafu]

it would be nice to be able to be able to say 'turn each scene into a section'

It may be too late, but you might want to check out the bottom of the Documents menu where the most useful "Split With Selection as Title" lives.

Dave

[spinningdoc]

Yeah that's what I did, and it was pretty painless compared to other apps I've used. But hitting 'split at slugs' would've been even easier. I'm just incredibly lazy....

[Sean Coffee]

Don't let the format Nazis stop you actually writing...

Now if only there were a great writing app that let you just outline, research and write, saving the format BS for later.

That is, of course, because the air is so imbued with toxins that the necessity of smoking a cigarette effectively drops to zero.

But those toxins give us such beautiful sunsets!

The only thing I've felt the lack of yet is a kind of 'reverse edit Scrivenings'. I cut and pasted a Word script into Scriv, and it would be nice to be able to be able to say 'turn each scene into a section' (based on sluglines). But that's not really much of an inconvenience.

I had the same issue. I ended up taking a couple of hours and just re-typing 40 or so pages into Scrivener. Which may seem a little ridiculous, but it was a good exercise -- and now I can work how I want to work, and can save my Final Draft headaches for the end.

[AmberV]

A feature analogous to Tinderbox's "explode" wouldn't be a bad addition in the future, in my humble opinion. Tinderbox handles it with a number of options, some of which would not be useful in Scrivener (such as breaking each paragraph into a new note), but the ability to define a custom string of characters as a break point is quite nice. You just type in your separator, press Okay, and get 230 or whatever sub-documents all split at the marker (which can be optionally trashed).

[popcornflix]

Hollywood is such a production line that writers get further by conforming to the nth degree unto the tiniest, most irrelevant detail than being funny, wise, or engaging, and that you don't have a choice.

Think of it this way: it's like showing up for a pro cricket match with a baseball bat. They won't let you play. You may be a real artist with that bat, but they won't let you play, because entry to the competition is limited by certain requirements. Hollywood is the same way. Overall, ability trumps all, but you can't compete unless you get past the entry gate. And the gatekeepers check format first, because it's fast and easy.

Scrivener has exactly the right amount of screenplay functionality

Yep, I agree completely.

At the risk of causing frickin' killer laser beams to erupt from KB's eyes, I must respectfully disagree.

Scrivener has very nearly the right amount of screenplay functionality. It lacks two crucial features for writing a professional Hollywood screenplay:
Action paragraphs with a hard right margin, and some kind of indicator of the 54th line of a page.

Keith may or may not at some point in time (to be determined later) address the hard right margin. He will NOT show us the end of the page. Never. Maybe.

So my disagreement with you is, like arguing with a studio executive, largely for my own diversion and a complete waste of time. Because Scrivener has exactly as much screenwriting functionality as it has.

In Los Angeles, same is good, different is bad, and almost no one smokes cigarettes.

That is, of course, because the air is so imbued with toxins that the necessity of smoking a cigarette effectively drops to zero.

Demonstrating yet again that LA is wrong on so many levels.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. LA is lousy with Brits, Euros and NYers complaining about how bad it is, but none of them are moving back home.

Let me tell you about LA: the sunsets are gorgeous, the weather is great, beautiful creative people from all over the world migrate here, petrol is cheaper, and any kid can parlay their summer internship into a three-picture deal at Warners. Try that in Prague.

[Sean Coffee]

I don't know, popcorn, I kind of like freewriting in Scrivener for the first draft. Not knowing where I am in the true page count frees me from the anxiety of not hitting certain structure goals.*

Frankly, the only structure I really want to be aware of in a first draft is the overall three act thing, and I can pretty much intuit that. As for whether I'm hitting the end of my set up on page 10*, I can "fix it in post" with Final Draft if I decide to care.

Scrivener's true beauty lies in its purposeful limitations.

* Scrivener Forum: If you think the script binding stuff is limiting, let me introduce you to Syd Field, Robert McKee, the Save The Cat guy, and the producers who think those fellows have the secret formula -- they are legion.

[Eiron]

* Scrivener Forum: If you think the script binding stuff is limiting, let me introduce you to Syd Field, Robert McKee, the Save The Cat guy, and the producers who think those fellows have the secret formula -- they are legion.

From what I've seen these guys are a little industry that's creepy and exploitive as fuck. It's all fine and good if you're writing TV adventure movies for Turkish 12-year-olds. But that bastardized, pseudo Joseph Campbell, write by the numbers crap is the opposite of writing creatively - and soooo eighties.

Sad.

E

[popcornflix]

I don't know, popcorn, I kind of like freewriting in Scrivener for the first draft. Not knowing where I am in the true page count frees me from the anxiety of not hitting certain structure goals.

Every artist to their own style. (I don't think we're in any peril of seeing page breaks soon, so no sense wasting pixels on that debate.)

"Structure" seems to bug a lot of writers. In other kinds of art, they call structure "form." You just learn the form and create within them, or destroy them, depending on what kind of a piece you're doing. In some regards, a form is liberating, because it limits your choices.

If you think the script binding stuff is limiting, let me introduce you to Syd Field, Robert McKee, the Save The Cat guy

I'll agree with Field, McKee and a few others, but Blake Snyder deserves better. He's sold multiple scripts for $1 million each, one to Spielberg, he wrote a very friendly little book about Hollywood form, and he mentors people tirelessly while keeping up his writing career. Blake's a good guy, and he's helping people learn what it takes to make a Hollywood sale. (And no, I'm not Blake.)

[popcornflix]

From what I've seen these guys are a little industry that's creepy and exploitive as fuck. It's all fine and good if you're writing TV adventure movies for Turkish 12-year-olds. But that bastardized, pseudo Joseph Campbell, write by the numbers crap is the opposite of writing creatively - and soooo eighties.

Sad.

Hey, how's the view up there on your high horse?

There are a few good teachers out there, (Truby, Snyder and Hauge come to mind) but the script guru business has gotten mighty crowded.

I bet you'll like this.