Twig: Mini Tinderbox

[Stacey Mason]

I truly don't think I could have done this -- at least not nearly as well -- without Tinderbox. For this project alone, Tinderbox was worth every penny.

This kind of work is perfect for Tinderbox. Tinderbox is a perfect tool for people with complex data and serious work.

Well, price is all relative.

I think this is also a good point to make. If a few minutes in Tinderbox saves your tech writer from doing an hour's worth of work at $150/hr, suddenly the software is not as costly.

Vermonter, I'd be interested in hearing more about how you use the software, and perhaps doing a case study. I'd love to continue this conversation offline.

Stacey Mason
smason@eastgate.com

[Eddie]

We don't have "yearly upgrades".

We are constantly improving our software, and try to issue upgrades as soon as the version we're using is clearly better than the version you have.

Looking over the release logs, I see 14 upgrades in the past year.

I think that what we're referring to is that "Tinderbox comes with a full year of free updates."
As far as I can tell, if any of those improvements falls outside of the full year of updates, customers have to pay $90 in order to benefit from such improvements. Maybe I'm just used to more generous policies (Sonny Software, Mellel, Ergonis, Microsoft, Nisus, etc.)

Perhaps you're making it reasonable by NOT upgrading.

Well, yes, that is kind of my point, but I worded it poorly. I didn't mean for it to apply universally. $45/y is reasonable for me. The upgrade fee is entirely voluntary. A lot of people look at the price of Tinderbox, and then the one-year-of-upgrades cost, and think they'll have to pay this all of time to keep using it. If you upgrade every year, yes, it is expensive. If you can't afford it then you can space things out until it is affordable.

Completely understand. That's what I'm doing with Panorama. I'm using 5.5 and will upgrade when version 7 comes out, probably in a couple of years. Meanwhile I'm very happy using my older version

[eastgate]

I think you'll find our upgrade policy is actually more generous than most of the companies you named.

[KB]

I just wanted to interrupt very quickly to say an official welcome to Mark and Stacey of Eastgate, and to compliment them on a great program. I'd never used Tinderbox before, and have still to scratch more than the surface, but Ioa - who has always been a big TB advocate over here - has introduced it for tracking Scrivener 2.0 bugs internally at L&L and its versatility is quite amazing. Right, normal programming may now resume.
All the best,
Keith
(Scriv dev)

[Eddie]

I think you'll find our upgrade policy is actually more generous than most of the companies you named.

If that were the case I would have purchased Tinderbox a long time ago

Sonny Software. I purchased Bookends in April 2005. Upgraded in October 2007 for $29, which is 29% of the regular price. I believe the previous version (10) came out in July 2007 and received free updates until January 2010.
Retail price change since 2005: 0%

Mellel. "All the updates and upgrades, major or minor, will come free of any charge for two years."
Retail price change since 2005: 26% (Arguably, Mellel has been under-priced, and the increase in dollars was only $10)

Ergonis. "If you purchased your license within the last two years, the upgrade is free for you."
Retail price change since 2005: Don't know, since I bought their bundle for 15 Euro (on sale) if I remember correctly, and not each application separately.

Microsoft. I think I paid $120 to upgrade from Office 2004 to Office 2008 Special Media Edition when it came out. I also got a free upgrade to Expression Media 2 once it came out. Since Office 2008 has been out for a while, their prices are even lower now. An upgrade to that version is $75 at Amazon. The full version costs $170 now.
Retail price change since 2005: N/A. I upgraded from a different version and Office 2008 Special Media Edition was the most expensive version when I made my purchase (MSRP $499)

Nisus. I have not paid for a single upgrade to Nisus Writer Pro. I bought my copy in 2009, but as far as I know they've sold it since 2007 and all updates have been free so far.
Retail price change since 2007 (first release): 0%

All of these companies have also offered special promotions in terms of bundles and discounts (e.g., Ergonis Productivity Bundle, Mellel + Bookends, Microsoft Black Friday sale, MacUpdate Promo, etc.).

I hope you find this useful, and if I can be of any further assistance just let me know by private message. I do wish you much success with Tinderbox and your other applications. I really enjoyed Tinderbox when I tried it

[KB]

Hi,

I'm not entirely sure this is the right place to debate the pricing or upgrade fees of another piece of software, really, especially when the creators of that software are nice enough to pop by. It might be better to take discussion about price and upgrade fees to the Eastgate forum or to take it up directly with the Eastgate guys, and to keep this thread about Twig and its relation to Tinderbox. (For the record, though, companies promising two years of free upgrades are rare - I'd certainly never do that, even though it's inadvertently ended up like that with 2.0 taking so long. )

Thanks for your co-operation.

All the best,
Keith

[Eddie]

I do apologize Keith, and agree 100%. That's why I mentioned that I'm available via private message.
Sorry about any inconvenience.

[KB]

No need to apologise Eddie, I just wanted to keep things on track (I know, not something I do often ) - many thanks for your understanding.
All the best,
Keith

[ptram]

Since both Lit&Lat and Eastgate officials are here, is there an opportunity to talk a little about the chance that their products become more and more integrated over time?

As for me: Tinderbox is tempting, but a bit over my abilities (not having a programmer's mind). Twig looks like what I'm looking for: a mix of outliner, note taker, Tinderbox maps and other views. The visual outliner that is what I like more in Tinderbox, and that I need the most in Scrivener.

Can they become totally integrated? Can I see the Scrivener's Binder in a Twig map? Could I quickly mirror the changes I did in Twig in the Binder? Are there way to implement these features in an easy way?

Paolo

[Jaysen]

(not having a programer's mind)

This makes an assumption that a programmers mind is a good thing or that having one is helpful. Dubious assumptions both.

[eastgate]

Jaysen: as a general rule, I think that it's always better to know, and that possessing a skill is generally better than not. So, being able to program is better than not being able to program, just as being able to read, or to cook, or to play tennis, are all good things.

I don't think knowing how to program a computer is inherently corrupting, though of course I'm bound to be prejudiced.

PTram: Closer integration with Scrivener would be great. Of course, right now we're separated by a moderate ocean, we use distinct programming languages, different application frameworks, and I fancy both firms have too many urgent tasks to do, and too few hands for the work. It's amazing we work together as well as we do!

[Jaysen]

Jaysen: as a general rule, I think that it's always better to know, and that possessing a skill is generally better than not. So, being able to program is better than not being able to program, just as being able to read, or to cook, or to play tennis, are all good things.

I don't think knowing how to program a computer is inherently corrupting, though of course I'm bound to be prejudiced.

Morning eastgate!

As you may soon discover, much of what proceeds from my fingertips is very tongue in cheek (which is an anatomical anomaly if you think about it). But…

From what I see around me, there is a pretty strong correlation between programming knowledge/experience and a general disassociation of "common user knowledge" limits. Otherwise all UI and all menu systems would be fabulous. I think ptram's point, and the source of my jibe at folks like me, is that we programmer/systems/nerd types really don't always see things like the average person. Hence the general stereotypes about us. Unless you want to look at things in our convoluted and overly complicated manner, then not having our mind isn't so bad.

There might be something worth thinking about in there somewhere.

[AmberV]

˙uoıʇɐnʇıs ʇɐɥʇ uı ɹɐןןoɔ ǝɥʇ ǝʌoqɐ pǝuǝddɐɥ ʇɐɥʍ ʞooן ןןǝʍ :sı ʇuıod s,uǝsʎɐɾ ʞuıɥʇ ı ʇnq ˙ʇuɐʇɹodɯı sı ʇuǝɹǝɟɟıp ƃuıʞuıɥʇ

[ben_worthington]

Just picking up some comments earlier in this thread; I have never really understood the complaints about Tinderbox's supposed 'ugliness'. Even at their default settings, the maps are really quite good to look at. Plus, you can beautify them in many different ways.

As for the UI, I just don't see what the issue is. The small toolbar isn't exactly gorgeous, but after all, its just a toolbar! Does anyone care that much? What it needs to do, it does well - for instance, I cannot see how the linking button and associated parking bays could be any better implemented.

There are lots of other examples of well thought out UI, some of them more recent additions; the typeahead search, inline editing, the ability to see into and manipulate containers from the level above, and so on.

Personally, I have no problem with the approach eastgate has adopted with the UI. I would much rather have a simple but (in my opinion) well implemented UI than a fake spiral bound notebook splashed across my laptop screen. I have to use Tinderbox at work, sometimes sat in a Court room, and need to be taken seriously.

As for price, I sometimes wonder whether the complaints are more about context; anything that has a price attached represents poor value if you buy it and don't use it. I certainly wouldn't recommend buying Tinderbox if you do not have a clear idea of what you might need it for. I am using Tinderbox to help me manage a legal dispute worth £15m. For me, in that context, the price of the licence represents something of a bargain.

Anyway, that's just my $229 worth.

Ben

[AmberV]

Speaking of the cost of Tinderbox, they just announced a summer sale. New licenses are about $30 off, and upgrades are $10 off.