Opening manuscript in Pages '09 (sigh...)

Ju
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:54 pm Post

I agree - with Keith. .docx is merely Microsoft's way of making people upgrade and keep using Office to stay compatible with the rest of the business world.

Programming is total greek to me, but from what I gather from Keith's explanation is that it wouldn't be difficult for Apple to give us better rtf support. Features? Frankly, I like Pages 20x better - more feature I'd actually use and none of the crud I wouldn't. I think half of us are lamenting more than complaining. We'd all love to run Pages and ditch Word. I don't care about 20 new templates. I don't care about a slew of hidden picture frames I can enable.

Why, Apple? Why?

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Jaysen
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:14 pm Post

Expect that no one knows that they are RTF unless they are above the "basic user" level.

I used to be of the "everyone knows that camp" until recently. Here is what changed my opinion on the "savvy" of the basic user. I was at my daughters school. I arrived late to the IT group showing off their advanced computer curriculum. Everyone was all "ooohh" and "ahhh" so I am expecting to see some basic linux or maybe, just maybe a Mac. Turns out the whole things was "learning Office 2007" right from the book. I objected of course and was firmly told by all the IT professionals that the only software product that was able to do docs, spread sheets, presentations and emails was Office. Not rising to that occasion I asked the teachers "what is a computer" and the response was a finger pointing at the monitor. Not the CPU tower, the monitor. Teaching students how to use Office was the sole point of the schools computer curriculum.

I started asking various questions of folks around me regarding their use of computers. Not the guys I work with, but the other managers, some friends who are not "in the industry" and some relatives. With out fail answers always always boiled down to some variation of "I accept the defaults" or "what are you talking about" or, my favorite, "you mean there are other ways to do that?"

I am not trying to be argumentative, although I am sure your head is about to explode, as much as make a point that we, the scriverati +3, do not constitute a normal user base. You as a developer are even further to the fringe of the bell where AmberV and I live (yes I know there are more power users than us, but you may not want to associate with me, God knows Amber doesn't). As such should Apple target us, those not in the 97% of the population 1 deviation from the mean? As a businessman I think you know the answer to that.

That is my point.

I will now rejoin Mr K under the table and hope I am not banned from future postings. I am sure you are currently contemplating that action just to save everyone the agony of dealing with me, but just think how boring it would be.

For the record, the above is a JOKE! Mr Blount is above that type of action (I hope) as evidenced by his not deleting negative posts made by idiots (although I am most likely one of those).
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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dr
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:25 pm Post

Much, much truth to what Jaysen says. The "average user" will learn to work in only one or two programs, resist upgrading to new versions of those programs, and simply tune out new applications, operating systems, or bits of snazzy hardware.

It's called the learning curve, and the folks to blame are interface designers and system engineers, who long ago determined that the machines would only work easily in the hands of fans of sudoku and dungeons and dragons. (If you think interfaces are easy to learn, you like games, or rules, or baseball stats, and you are a nerd, not a normal person.)

I could go on, but won't. People aren't stupid, but they don't think like electrical engineers or the rest of us geeks. They pick up on WII quickly, and that should teach every interface designer a lesson. The iPhone interface is a move in a more populist direction.

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Jaysen
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:43 pm Post

Ummm … Droo sir, you do realize that you just hinted at agreement with at least one idea that originated with a +3 member? This may cause many to question your sanity.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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KB
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:05 pm Post

I still disagree, I'm afraid. :) I think it differs across generations, too, though. The kids I taught in my primary school knew there were different word processors: one of them said that their dad used OpenOffice at home, others used Macs whereas we had Windows at school etc. And the kid-friendly word processor we used at school saved as... You guessed it, RTF.

I was an "average user" for many years before I became an "advanced user", and RTF was one of the first formats I came across. It will also be one of the first formats that many Windows users came across, because it is the default format of Wordpad, the TextEdit-style program that comes with Windows and which you use until you realise you need Word (if your computer didn't come bundled with Office). That's where I experienced RTF first, and it was in the first weeks of having my first very own PC.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that the majority of Mac users aren't "average computer users". Whilst I'm sure there are many Mac users who have always used Macs, I think it is probably safe to say that most chose to switch to a Mac from another platform. And regardless of whether they switched or not, surely around 99% of Mac users have to use Windows machines at some point. Switching between platforms involves more than the user about which you are talking - the user who thinks the monitor is the computer and the CD tray is the coffee holder - is capable of. This is why programs such as Scrivener flourish on the Mac, too, I would think (now that I come to think about it): because the users, having switched platforms or having experienced the differences between platforms, then start looking for other alternatives to the solutions they are used to.

Anyway, the fact is that Pages does support RTF. It can import and export the format. It just doesn't do it very well. Surely that should be considered a defect rather than a study of people's needs, because they have provided a feature that a group do need, just not in a way that is useful.

Anyway, right now I am in the middle of a 4,000-word waffle on the .pages format for the blog, explaining to new users the problems involved in exchanging Pages files with Scrivener. I've been meaning to talk about this on the blog for a while because it comes up so often, but this discussion has prompted me to get on with it!

Oh, and no one gets booted from the boards for disagreeing with me (even the strange and self-proclaimed "+3"), so long as they don't say that Star Wars is rubbish (recent trilogy notwithstanding) or start telling me that they don't like the way I use the word "thou'st"...

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Jaysen
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Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:38 pm Post

The rest of your post speaks for itself. But I do take issue with…
KB wrote:Oh, and no one gets booted from the boards for disagreeing with me (even the strange and self-proclaimed "+3"), so long as they don't say that Star Wars is rubbish (recent trilogy notwithstanding) or start telling me that they don't like the way I use the word "thou'st"...

Are you now giving me license to disparage the Terminator series? I went out and bought the whole thing and now the kids force me to sit through it on a regular basis. There is a bit there that really gets under my skin.

As to Star Wars … thank God Shatner was not tasked to destroy this one as well. What the heck went wrong in Lucas' dim little cranial cavity when he "re-released" the original with not so original footage? I don't give a rip what you intended, but leave my childhood alone. At least make it possible for me to show my kids what I experienced and started me on a sci-fi/fantasy trip that Snort hopes will end soon (dear, it hasn't ended in 30 years, consider it a lost cause). And while I am at it … 

Umm … I guess there is a little latent anger here. Let's move on shall we?
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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xiamenese
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Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:13 am Post

I'm happy to sit on the fence on this one. I agree with Keith, that in all probability, the majority of Mac users -- other than those who have simply grown up in families which were Mac orientated -- have done so because they have wanted an alternative, and so may be considered possibly a little bit more savvy.

On the other hand, I agree with Jaysen that Apple are trying -- in many ways mistakenly as far as I'm concerned -- to simplify things, for users by providing ready-rolled solutions to everything, all those infernal "professionally-designed" templates ... just drop in your words/images/whatever ... and you'll have a document that anyone in the know will look at and say "Ah yes, Apple whatever.app, XX template." And I'm glad to say, to pick up a point from earlier, that I use GyazMail which I think is much better than Mail.app and which only sends mails as plain text! I loathe the styled mails that so many people seem to think cool.

I think a classic example of this simplification process is iMovie. iMovie HD is a much better app, giving you more control and possibilities, than iMovie as part of iLife 08 ... but then I think part of the problem was that there wasn't enough technical space between iMovie HD and Final Cut Express, so who would lash out on the latter when the former was free and nearly as capable!

As for Pages, I wish I could cut out all those templates and save the disk space, and yes, proper RTF handling would be really good, but.

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hamishmacdonald
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Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:29 am Post

Just to weigh in on the positive side for Pages, I've been printing out the innards of my books quite happily from Pages, and last night I had to re-do the layout for one of the covers. I originally did it in InDesign, which I don't have on this computer, so this time I did it in Pages. It was easy, and it looks great.

I can do everything in one program? Great!

I haven't written a book using Scrivener yet, so I haven't tried to do any back-and-forth with files. But I think by the time I've compiled the project into a draft, I'd be finished 'scrivening' and would just stay in Pages.

That's how I'm using it for my copywriting: once I've compiled a document and sent it to my editor, any changes she or I make will really need to be done in the context of the whole piece; thinking in sections is more useful in the composition stage.

So I like Scrivener, I like Pages.
- Hamish MacDonald
...........................................................
http://www.hamishmacdonald.com

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KB
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Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:08 pm Post

Hi Hamish - I agree, and that is how Scrivener is intended really anyway. For most books this is fine; the only trouble comes if users have books which contain images or footnotes that they want to export from Scrivener and get into Pages. In that case, they're out of luck - there is simply no way of getting footnotes and images from Scrivener to Pages without using a third program as an intermediary.

All the best,
Keith

Pr
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Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:18 am Post

KB
which intermediary would be least troublesome? And which program has proven ok for people avoiding Word?

Prion

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KB
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Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:16 pm Post

I think any of the OpenOffice variants work fine.

mr
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:55 pm Post

In case it helps anyone, I have been able to preserve footnotes in an RTF document when importing into Pages '08. The RTF was generated by Nisus Writer Pro. The trick was to open it in MS Word, save it as a Word file, then import it into Pages, and the footnotes survived the import. FYI I cannot remember whether I had saved the Nisus RTF for "Word" (in Nisus) before importing it into Word, but you could try it both ways. So if you want to try to preserve RTF footnotes when importing into Pages, try: RTF--->Word---->Pages. Better than nothing I suppose.

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AmberV
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:26 pm Post

Yes, this is the only known workaround for the issue. We were also suggesting NeoOffice or OpenOffice.org, as they can both save proper Word files without the heavy expensive of Microsoft Office, for those who do not have it.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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