Scapple now has competitors: CmapTools & Mindomo.com (in 'Concept Map' mode)

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ship69
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Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:21 pm Post

xiamenese wrote:
ship69 wrote:Part of your 'habitat' is that someone else evolves who eventually steals your lunch, because they do what you do but do it better.

Wait - now I get it. Scapple is a religion!
And there's no successful convincing someone that their religion in incorrect or needs a little fine tuning... let alone an entire upgrade.

Scapple akbar! Scapple akbar! Scapple is perfect! Death to non-believing infidels!**

Good luck


Now that is truly offensive!

** My emboldening.


Come off - it stop taking me so seriously !

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Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:49 pm Post

ship69 wrote:Come off - it stop taking me so seriously !


Perhaps if you stop being offensive...?
You can't conquer stupid — or cure it — with more stupid.

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devinganger
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Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:42 am Post

ship69 wrote:I am by no means an expert in these tools


And yet you're trying to argue from (your) authority. Which is why no one is listening to you, perhaps?
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Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

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KB
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Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:43 am Post

Just to clear one point up - and ignore the insults - Scapple has not stopped development. It has, however, been on something of a hiatus while Scrivener 3.0 and Scrivener for iOS have been in development, given that I'm the sole developer.

Also, the idea for Scapple was always that it would be very simple, do one thing, and not have lots of new features added. Much as TextEdit have lots of features added but remains useful for simple notes and documents, the idea was that Scapple would have a simple and stable feature-set and not need to have lots of bloat added later.

I use Scapple plenty myself, and it already does everything I want. There are a few things that need updating, and that will happen once the Scrivener juggernaut is back under control, but it's not going to change fundamentally. It's never going to become hierarchical, for instance - that would defy the whole point of creating it in the first place. Scapple isn't a mind-map - it's a virtual piece of paper on which you can write anywhere and make connections, nothing more.

As for the old "evolve or you die" chestnut, we always get told that by users who want something not on the roadmap, and yet somehow have managed to go from strength to strength. ;)
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

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ship69
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Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:27 am Post

KB wrote:Just to clear one point up - and ignore the insults - Scapple has not stopped development. It has, however, been on something of a hiatus while Scrivener 3.0 and Scrivener for iOS have been in development, given that I'm the sole developer.

Also, the idea for Scapple was always that it would be very simple, do one thing, and not have lots of new features added. Much as TextEdit have lots of features added but remains useful for simple notes and documents, the idea was that Scapple would have a simple and stable feature-set and not need to have lots of bloat added later.

I use Scapple plenty myself, and it already does everything I want. There are a few things that need updating, and that will happen once the Scrivener juggernaut is back under control, but it's not going to change fundamentally. It's never going to become hierarchical, for instance - that would defy the whole point of creating it in the first place. Scapple isn't a mind-map - it's a virtual piece of paper on which you can write anywhere and make connections, nothing more.

As for the old "evolve or you die" chestnut, we always get told that by users who want something not on the roadmap, and yet somehow have managed to go from strength to strength. ;)


Firstly I really have to congratulate you on writing an amazingly useful piece of software. I salute you - well done indeed.

Secondly it is of course your choice as to whether you continue to evolve it in any way whatsoever - just as it is our choice as to whether we user it. And yes, IMHO, you are extremely wise to keep clear what the purpose of Scapple is, and to resist the temptation to clutter it up & over-complicate the thing with other features.

Nonetheless I do think that nothing in this world, not even Scapple is perfect. And you may find that if you listen carefully to some of your users that they are very likely to come up with some fine tuning if nothing else that would allow Scapple to do it's primary purpose slightly better.

I don't know if you would call it a "bug" but I have documents some very surprising ways that your (IMHO) extremely useful feature of "stacking" works in Scapple Windows, at least, here:
http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35688
So when time/energy allows, I suggest that for the benefit of new users (and anyone using center justification) that "stacking" does need some fixing.

For my money another area that needs attention is the whole subject of "layout".

A) In Movement Mode (or whatever Alt/M's mode is called) the speed of movement Up/Down/Left/Right arrow key is annoyingly slow.
To get clear, just using the arrow keys 'un-modified' moves the text boxes by one pixel per key stroke, and this is fine.
But Shift+arrow-key only moves shapes by 5 pixels and holding down the Control key has no effect, which is a lost opportunity.
You'd need to trial with other users by I would suggest
- Unmodified arrow key==> 1pixel [unchanged]
- Shift + arrow key ==> 10px [double what it is now, and matching what Photoshop does]
- Control + arrow key ==> 20px? or 5px ? [or twice or half whatever shift/arrowkey does]
- Control+Shift+ arrowkey ==> Faster still ?

B) More powerful layouts
I think it would be really helpful to allow the user to change the layouts (of just selected items).
I don't even have a strong opinion on what these should be (ask other users) but for example you might consider:
- Circular (or Radial)
- Some form of grid
- Some form of "make all arrows go left to right" (or top to bottom)
I think that adding such more powerful layouts say on the Right-click menu would not significantly 'clutter' the interface, but would make cleaner / more attractive diagrams much more easy to produce.

C) Snap to objects mode (as a default)
When moving shapes around getting them to snap the last couple of pixels to align to each other (probably either by left edges or by centers) shouldn't get in the way of the interface, but would allow cleaner diagrams to be created more easily.

D) Background grid
A fairly fine, but probably visually hidden, background grid that shapes could snap to when moving by mouse would be helpful.
You could possibly do something really clever whereby if the mouse is moving SLOWLY the snapping no longer works [??]

I don't think any of the above would get in the way of the core purpose of Scapple, but would all help, in some cases dramatically.

Anyhow that is my tuppence worth. I hope helpful.

J

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ptram
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Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:04 pm Post

Scapple is unique in its bare simplicity. I couldn't do without it, and hope it will appear on iOS very soon. Any other 'whiteboard' app I've tried added levels of complexity interfering with the need to 'clean my mind'.

Paolo

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PJS
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Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:07 pm Post

ship69:

You have nicely and appropriately quoted KB. However, it occurs to me that — in carefully citing his POV — you somehow managed to avoid actually reading what he had written.

KB wrote:the idea for Scapple was always that it would be very simple, do one thing, and not have lots of new features added.
....
Scapple isn't a mind-map - it's a virtual piece of paper on which you can write anywhere and make connections, nothing more.


Please give it another try.

ps
You can't conquer stupid — or cure it — with more stupid.

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Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:34 pm Post

ship69 wrote:I don't know if you would call it a "bug" but I have documents some very surprising ways that your (IMHO) extremely useful feature of "stacking" works in Scapple Windows, at least, here:
http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35688
So when time/energy allows, I suggest that for the benefit of new users (and anyone using center justification) that "stacking" does need some fixing.


Scapple for me is more or less complete as it is. I am happy with it's current simplicity and lack of learning curve.

But I participated in the thread that ship69 references above, which discusses that Stacking in Windows only seems to work when the text is left aligned. As the Scapple user guide doesn't specify a particular alignment as pre-requisite for stacking, it is not clear whether this is a bug or a design choice--it legitimately could be either. So would appreciate a clarification on that point.

I am posting this in the hope that the above point does not get lost in the discussion about enhancements.

Thank you,
Jim
I’m just a customer.

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ship69
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Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:43 pm Post

PJS wrote:ship69:

You have nicely and appropriately quoted KB. However, it occurs to me that — in carefully citing his POV — you somehow managed to avoid actually reading what he had written.

KB wrote:the idea for Scapple was always that it would be very simple, do one thing, and not have lots of new features added.
....
Scapple isn't a mind-map - it's a virtual piece of paper on which you can write anywhere and make connections, nothing more.


Please give it another try.

ps


This begs the question what is that "one thing"?
Well from https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scapple.php we have:
> What is Scapple?
> Scapple is an easy-to-use tool for getting ideas down as quickly as possible and
> making connections between them.

... and then

> If you’ve ever scribbled down ideas all over a piece of paper and drawn lines between
> related thoughts, then you already know what Scapple does.


I do not believe my suggestions would in any significant way slow down the speed of "getting ideas down" nor of "making connections between them". Moreover when you think it through, the real advantage over actually using real paper for this sort of thing is that it is easier to move clusters of connected things around the virtual paper so as to make the diagrams more nicely spaced out and easier to read and therefore easier to think about, than is readily possible by using pen and paper. My suggestions merely help with the latter without affecting the former. Moreover the incorporation of the ability to "stack" texts is a nod in the direction of the importance of having a nice clean layout.

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lunk
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Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:37 pm Post

ship69 wrote:My suggestions merely help


KB has answered, so what is the point of the continued argument, from your point of view?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:49 am Post

ship69 wrote:This begs the question what is that "one thing"?

If you have not been able to comprehend/absorb/infer what that "one thing" is, perhaps it is your own reading skills which must be addressed.

Incidentally, to "beg a question" does not in its original and — I suspect — preferred formulation imply the need of a question. It implies the need of further evidence to support a statement which, absent such evidence, offers only itself as proof.

ps
You can't conquer stupid — or cure it — with more stupid.

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ship69
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Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:25 am Post

lunk wrote:
ship69 wrote:My suggestions merely help


KB has answered, so what is the point of the continued argument, from your point of view?


Sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.

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ship69
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Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:31 am Post

PJS wrote:
ship69 wrote:This begs the question what is that "one thing"?

If you have not been able to comprehend/absorb/infer what that "one thing" is, perhaps it is your own reading skills which must be addressed.

Incidentally, to "beg a question" does not in its original and — I suspect — preferred formulation imply the need of a question. It implies the need of further evidence to support a statement which, absent such evidence, offers only itself as proof.

ps


Go on then, beyond what is actually written on the product page of Scapple, please enlighten us - how would you precisely define "the one thing"?

Sorry, are we here to debate the finer more abstruse points grammar?

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lunk
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Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:58 am Post

ship69 wrote:
KB wrote:I use Scapple plenty myself, and it already does everything I want. There are a few things that need updating, and that will happen once the Scrivener juggernaut is back under control, but it's not going to change fundamentally.


Secondly it is of course your choice as to whether you continue to evolve it in any way whatsoever - just as it is our choice as to whether we user it. And yes, IMHO, you are extremely wise to keep clear what the purpose of Scapple is, and to resist the temptation to clutter it up & over-complicate the thing with other features.

For my money another area that needs attention is the whole subject of "layout".

A) In Movement Mode

B) More powerful layouts

C) Snap to objects mode (as a default)

D) Background grid



ship69 wrote:
lunk wrote:
ship69 wrote:My suggestions merely help


KB has answered, so what is the point of the continued argument, from your point of view?


Sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.


If so I will try to clarify myself. :)

KB answered that Scapple "already does everything I want" and that "it's not going to change fundamentally", so I just wondered why you continue to argue for changes like more powerful layouts, background grid, etc? What's the point? You have "warned" KB that here are other apps with similar functions, and you got an answer. So why not use one of the, in your opinion, better apps instead of going on requesting changes in Scapple?

I am just curious as to why you continue the argument, after having received an answer from the developer himself, clarifying the situation. :)
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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ship69
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Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:32 am Post

lunk wrote:
If so I will try to clarify myself. :)

KB answered that Scapple "already does everything I want" and that "it's not going to change fundamentally", so I just wondered why you continue to argue for changes like more powerful layouts, background grid, etc? What's the point? You have "warned" KB that here are other apps with similar functions, and you got an answer. So why not use one of the, in your opinion, better apps instead of going on requesting changes in Scapple?

I am just curious as to why you continue the argument, after having received an answer from the developer himself, clarifying the situation. :)



Ah I see - yes, fair enough. To get clear, I was emphatically not offering changes to what Scapple does "fundamentally", but rather just keep doing what Scapple fundamentally does quite well, but get to do it better... And do so without adding any significant clutter or confusion to the interface, as this would I contend make it more useful to more people, and do so without interfering whilst sticking to the stated core design ethos.

However as you point out, if the developer feels that more sophisticated layout control and more easy development of better looking / better laid out diagrams would not help make the application useful to the developer then fair enough. Ultimately that's the developer's choice.

Ultimately I guess it depends on how useful, they want to make the application to how many people... and how many sales they want to make all whilst still staying with the design ethos.

It's true that KB doesn't want any completely different functionality such as "becoming hierarchical" and I was not suggesting remotely anything like that. What I was trying to do was suggest small enhancements and slightly better defaults. I was not suggesting features that would take Scapple off down a substantially different roadmap.

One thing though, I'm not sure what KB means by "somehow have managed to go from strength to strength" given that there has only ever been one release of the windows version. The best they could argue is that they have started strong and stayed put !

Either way KB does state that "Scapple has not stopped development", and it was into that comment that I was making my constructive suggestions.