Ulysses III

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michaelbywater
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Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:59 pm Post

KB wrote:I'm only talking about reorganisation of the Preferences and some of the options that really belong together, along with continuing to refine Compile so that it doesn't *completely* baffle new users.


What do you mean, "new" users? Suddenly us old-timers are forgotten? Well. You may be fishing for compliments but what the hell; here's one: I'm STILL completely baffled. Now that's what I call design integrity.

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KB
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Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:24 pm Post

michaelbywater wrote:What do you mean, "new" users? Suddenly us old-timers are forgotten? Well. You may be fishing for compliments but what the hell; here's one: I'm STILL completely baffled. Now that's what I call design integrity.


New tagline:

Scrivener: So good that its most longstanding users find it baffling - and still use it!
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

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Juddbert
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Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:31 am Post

KB wrote:New tagline:

Scrivener: So good that its most longstanding users find it baffling - and still use it!

*Cringe*

That'll take some beating for the title: Worst ad-tag of 2013. :wink:
Can't write right. Don't care neither. Er...either.

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vic-k
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Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:49 am Post

michaelbywater wrote:I'm STILL completely baffled. Now that's what I call design integrity.

Kev,
bywater's just a moanin' old git. Take no notice of 'im!

Any news on the IDIOTS' GUIDE TO SCRIVENER TUTORIALS MADE EASY FOR DUMMIES yet?
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AndreasE
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Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:19 pm Post

KB wrote:
michaelbywater wrote:What do you mean, "new" users? Suddenly us old-timers are forgotten? Well. You may be fishing for compliments but what the hell; here's one: I'm STILL completely baffled. Now that's what I call design integrity.


New tagline:

Scrivener: So good that its most longstanding users find it baffling - and still use it!


Awesome. I strongly suggest "awesome".

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flaxton
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:26 pm Post

Whenever an iOS version is sufficiently together, I'm volunteering to be a beta tester :mrgreen: Please.

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Vermonter17032
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:11 pm Post

No doubt, plain text is inviting for some writing projects, especially in the early stages. However, I've never understood the supposed advantage of semantic formatting. I mean, I get the theory of it, but the practicality never really resonated with me. All that said, I like the new Ulysses, because it takes the emphasis off semantic formatting without limiting it.

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jonmoore
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:28 pm Post

Vermonter17032 wrote:No doubt, plain text is inviting for some writing projects, especially in the early stages. However, I've never understood the supposed advantage of semantic formatting. I mean, I get the theory of it, but the practicality never really resonated with me. All that said, I like the new Ulysses, because it takes the emphasis off semantic formatting without limiting it.


It's a personal choice but the great advantage of keeping everything in plain text is roundtrip editing across multiple platforms and programs. No matter the number of programs and platforms used to edit text, it never gets corrupted in any manner (even plain RTF formatting gets corrupted when moving beween say Windows & OS X or IOS). We're increasingly in a world where we're using multiple devices and programs to edit our text so this has become far more relevant in recent years. The fashion for writing using Markdown is especially pertinent to those of us who's writing ends up on screen based devices (which with the proliferation of e-readers will soon be most of us - it's not solely for writing that ends up on the web).

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Movie Draft
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Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:19 am Post

KB wrote:I feel this actually promotes it too much rather than tucks it away. Any user trying out Scrivener for anything other than scriptwriting will suddenly have that menu in their face, and it might feel that Scrivener is *too* geared towards scriptwriting for such users; it might also encourage our vocal screenwriting contingent to demand that, seeing as Scrivener boasts about "Scriptwriting" in its menus, it now at last implement MORE and CONTINUED etc. :)


Yeah, _definitely_ don't promote any screenwriting features, Keith. I mean, from a marketing point of view it's definitely in my, er, your interest.

Speaking completely impartially, of course. ;-)

I was interested to read about what you said about the Ulysses team starting from scratch though as that's something I've seriously considered doing over the last few months, but whenever I jot down what I'd do if I did start over it always comes up as an end product which barely resembles the current Movie Draft incarnation. So much so that I feel it should be a completely different product - which got me thinking: perhaps that's what I _should_ do. Take Movie Draft to the next major release and start again on a separate product. Kinda like having a Ford Fiesta and a Ford Focus.

Now, I don't know Ulysses' history, but if U-III (as they're referring to it - is that in itself markdown for something?) is vastly different from U-II, do you think they should have done something similar, or is U-III more of an evolution from U-II and not a "revolution"?

I've also always wondered how to handle a "major" upgrade on the MAS. Do you just end up having multiple versions of your app on there? Most confusing.

To your point about not having to cater for versions older than OS X 10.7: Can you not specify that Scrivener v3 (S-III?) requires 10.7 or greater to run? Surely there'll be a time when you'll have to drop support for 10.6.x being that it's two versions behind the latest OS offering...?

Mark.
P.s. I was really pleased to hear about your iOS progress. Looking forward to checking that out when it's released, Keith.
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baisui
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Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:12 am Post

KB wrote:I'm only talking about reorganisation of the Preferences and some of the options that really belong together, along with continuing to refine Compile so that it doesn't *completely* baffle new users.


I think they're excellent as they are -- the thing is most of the preferences are things most users will never need to touch, but it's nice to have if you need it. When new users see the vast array of options, they're bound to freak out a bit, but once they start using it for a real project, they'll realise they don't need to go into it to the preferences at all for most of what they do. I bet for the majority of people the problem is not that they can't find out how to do something they want or need to do.

For example, after years of using Scrivener, I had never before used the outline view to sort a long list of documents into a long list of folders -- I did today, and very easily found the 'Collapse auto-expanded outline...' preference. I had no idea that was there before and had no need to know before now. I might never have needed it, but I'm very glad today that it was there.

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Rayz
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Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:52 am Post

Movie Draft wrote:I was interested to read about what you said about the Ulysses team starting from scratch though as that's something I've seriously considered doing over the last few months, but whenever I jot down what I'd do if I did start over it always comes up as an end product which barely resembles the current Movie Draft incarnation. So much so that I feel it should be a completely different product - which got me thinking: perhaps that's what I _should_ do. Take Movie Draft to the next major release and start again on a separate product. Kinda like having a Ford Fiesta and a Ford Focus.


Right, if we are talking about the rebuild using the new Cocoa-compatible RealBasic then you should definitely finish that before going on to a major rebuild. This would give you an income and an incentive for the next rewrite. But are you sure that MovieDraft needs such a rewrite anyway?

Movie Draft wrote:Now, I don't know Ulysses' history, but if U-III (as they're referring to it - is that in itself markdown for something?) is vastly different from U-II, do you think they should have done something similar, or is U-III more of an evolution from U-II and not a "revolution"?


It's vastly different in that, at the moment, it doesn't do half as much. That's not a criticism because after a few more iterations then it'll probably be just as functional. What it brings to the table is synchronisation, versions, and the new Apple way of file-handling. The export still needs a lot of work though.


Movie Draft wrote:I've also always wondered how to handle a "major" upgrade on the MAS. Do you just end up having multiple versions of your app on there? Most confusing.


To keep the old version then your new version will need a completely different name. Apple doesn't allow more than one version of the same app to be sold on the app store.
As if I didn't talk enough: Dom on Writing

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Movie Draft
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Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:02 pm Post

Rayz wrote:Right, if we are talking about the rebuild using the new Cocoa-compatible RealBasic then you should definitely finish that before going on to a major rebuild. This would give you an income and an incentive for the next rewrite.


Oh, totally agree. Don't want to turn this into a thread about Movie Draft though, was just commenting on Ulysses starting from scratch and how it had crossed my mind also.

Rayz wrote:But are you sure that MovieDraft needs such a rewrite anyway?


Hmm. Well, half of it is that some of the original code base was written 10 years go when I started writing it as a hobby in my spare time and didn't really know that much about programming. I've learnt a LOT since then, both about programming and what I want from Movie Draft. But anyway...

Rayz wrote:It's vastly different in that, at the moment, it doesn't do half as much. That's not a criticism because after a few more iterations then it'll probably be just as functional. What it brings to the table is synchronisation, versions, and the new Apple way of file-handling. The export still needs a lot of work though.


It's interesting that they would release a _new_ version which does _less_. According to their blog they spent 18 months working on this release so I guess most of that time must have been spent reworking the underlying code to act as a better foundation for moving forward with updates in the future?

Rayz wrote:To keep the old version then your new version will need a completely different name. Apple doesn't allow more than one version of the same app to be sold on the app store.


I just took a look at the MAS and it seems Ulysses III is now the only listed app - which is fine from their point of view - but what happens to the users whom bought a previous version and their computer crashed. Can they still download the old version or would they have to buy Ulysses III? Having never released a major update onto the MAS I'm not entirely sure how that works.

I'm pretty sure I saw Ulysses listed on the MAS a few months ago and it was around $9.99 (or that could have been in £, not sure) so $39.99 seems a heck of a jump from that price point for something which does _less_. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think $39.99 is too expensive for such an app, not at all, I'm just having a hard time understanding why they are charging 4 time more for an app which does less. Or am I missing something? (It's difficult for me to to understand as I don't know Ulysses 2 to compre it to)

All the best,

Mark.
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Niran
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Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:06 am Post

I have been having fun playing with Ulysses. It is an interesting extension of plain text markup. The UI is gorgeous, colour scheme easily changeable.

But, after playing with the editor more and comparing it to Multimarkdown Composer, its deficiencies were more glaring.

There were some concepts that I did not find especially useful but the candler blog had a different take on documents vs. stacks and sheets. I suspect this is more a limitation of my own metaphors — I still can not wrap my headbaround tagging either.

Ulysses is still a v.1.0 product. I do love its UI and the icloud integration. It has to be the best looking plain text editor with Scrivener-like features. I think this would be a great product to see mature.

Reminds me of Scrivener-Gold. I liked the concept, but the initial execution worked very slowly; it has matured beautifully.

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Movie Draft
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Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:31 am Post

Niran wrote:Ulysses is still a v.1.0 product.


I'm having difficulty understanding this (as it seems a common feeling from what I've read) when it's labeled the third major release, or rather why users are ok with it having less functionality (again, so I can gather as I have not used Ulysses II) than the previous version.

It's almost as though users are ok with it being less capable as the aesthetics are subjectively better / prettier. Like dumping your current, intelligent yet ok-looking girlfriend, in favour of a less intelligent but pretty blonde.

Ok, that may be slightly overstating it, but I am interested from a psychological point of view why Ulysses users wouldn't be complaining right about now if it does less - especially if a v3 piece of software is being branded as v1, or is it that what is DOES do, it does better?

All the best,

Mark.
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Niran
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Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:02 am Post

I never could wrap my head around Ulysses 2(I feel the same way about Tinderbox - spent to much time fiddling and not enough time writing). Ulysses 2 allowed you to define your own markup. But, that meant that you had to define your own markup. But, I had no intention of recreating Markdown syntax for Ulysses 2.

The fact that I can use markdown and Ulysses 3 without having to do some brain gymnastics, means that the product just became infinitely more useful to me (note you can still define your own markup in Ulysses 3). The differences are far more than cosmetic. So, I will accept that Ulysses 3 is a completely different product and will give the developers some allowances for missing some previous features (ie:typewriter mode).

Niran