Ulysses 1.5 on MacUpdate promo

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fehnman
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:15 am Post

Maria wrote:It is always a good idea to rethink habits and try to feel how the other one might feel. There is nothing embarrassing about it, on the contrary, it shows that someone grows up.


Nah, it just shows that someone is insecure in their actions.

I find it funny how you point to the Japanese language, stating that there's no gender/sex, but that you still think in terms of male/female. Doesn't that contradict your whole point?

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Typo
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:16 am Post

Maria wrote:
fehnman wrote:...
It is a sexist language, and I appreciate any piece of text that tries to avoid sexism of this traditional form, better elegantly than clumsy, but if necessary, clumsy is OK.


German is not only sexist, but very clumsy already. Any attempt to make it less sexiest makes it even more clumsy. I hate that, really. If there's a way to write neutral in German without making it sound awkward, I'd embrace it without hesitation. So far I've seen none.

Well, the promo is over, I guess, so we might as well continue with this. ;)

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Maria
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:27 am Post

fehnman wrote:...
I find it funny how you point to the Japanese language, stating that there's no gender/sex, but that you still think in terms of male/female. Doesn't that contradict your whole point?


Absolutely not. I said that I am preoccupied because I grew up with that language. I am a victim ;) . (a happy one). My way of thinking is deeply rooted in the German language, even if I am talking Japanese. Btw., recently I asked, perhaps the first time in my life, whether someone was talking about a woman, when talking about a certain professor. I realised that immediately. But may be, I will be free in a few years?

Maria

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Maria
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:31 am Post

Typo wrote:...
German is not only sexist, but very clumsy already. Any attempt to make it less sexiest makes it even more clumsy. I hate that, really. If there's a way to write neutral in German without making it sound awkward, I'd embrace it without hesitation. So far I've seen none.

Well, the promo is over, I guess, so we might as well continue with this. ;)


Clumsy? I love that language, I did not know how lovely it is and how beautiful it is to express oneself in German -- until I had read all books I brought with me and realised that I had no more input in the evenings (so that I had to start writing myself..). Now I appreciate the language even more.

OK, promo is over. Somehow, this day was not filled with hard work, so I had power for a struggle, sorry to all! :oops:

Maria

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alexwein
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:54 am Post

I don't care about political correctness. I know how I feel when reading 'he' 'him' 'man' in language that is supposed to include me. It's a visceral thing, and it attests the incredible power language has over the way we think and behave. I think it is well worth considering, and for those who discount the importance of it, well, I would hope they'd care enough about how others might feel take a second look. To think about the fact that such language (and other language that excludes race or ethnic backgrounds, whatever) has, whether we acknolwedge it or not, a subtle but profound impact on how we think and what we do.

That doesn't mean I require everyone to be sensitive to gender-inclusive language. Many cultures and people aren't, and I accept that. To a point. Because I do think there is value in keeping this issue front-and-center, and I think it worth pointing it out whenever I feel its relevant. Whether people like it or not. And I think that because I have a personal stake in the issue. It affects me, and I believe it affects all of us in some way, and I recognize that as important.

So I can appreciate, and do appreciate, MJ and Maria's comments. If the use of male gender language affects you the way it does, then I say you have every right to feel that way and make purchasing choices based on that. I can also appreciate those that find this extreme or discounting of cultural differences, but I would say to them that just because it doesn't bother you or because it is not part of some culture's awareness doesn't mean the issue is not important or relevant to bring up. It's important, I think, to recognize that while something may not be an issue for you, it being an issue for someone else makes it worthy of consideration.

Just my thoughts on the subject! Please don't flame me if you disagree. It's not my attempt to be politically correct. It's the way I feel, and my experience, so you can take it for what it's worth to you.

Alexandria
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Khadrelt
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:05 pm Post

Isn't the culture of oppression funny? It goes both ways, too - women feel cheated in many ways because of sexism, but so do men. Many people automatically view a man with suspicion or even hostility where a woman wouldn't have earned a second glance - for instance, having the police called on you while taking a walk with your daughter. (Oh my gosh, a man without a wife attached holding hands with a young girl! He must be a child molester!)

No, it didn't happen to me...but it has happened.

Or take me and my father, who have gender-nuetral names. People (mostly telemarketers and others of that ilk) often automatically assume I'm a woman. It doesn't offend me, though...I have to much to worry about already than getting offended over little things like that. :wink:


Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

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Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 pm Post

Well, people often call me Alex which is usually a man's name. And I have short hair. So I often get people thinking I'm a man until they look at my face or hear my voice. I don't care about that one bit. It's unintentional and they are usually more put-out by it than I am (i.e., they get all apologetic about it).

I never said I get 'offended,' I spoke to something that goes a bit deeper. But that's okay. I'm sorry you seem to take this issue so lightly and seem to find it trivial. But, oh well. That's the way it goes. I agree--life is too short to worry about such things. People are willing to take another's experiences seriously as something worthy of consideration or they aren't. Life goes on. :)

Alexandria
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Khadrelt
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:13 pm Post

[foot-in-mouth mode]
I apologize for the miscommunication; I was not reponding to your post directly, and did not intent to imply that you're too easily offended or that the situation was trivial. I have a bad habit of coming across wrong, which is why it's generally not safe to let me out-of-doors...

I was only saying that I find it silly how people automatically assume things about other people based solely on completely inconclusive evidence - such as their names, or their being male, female, black, white, etc.

As for the Monty Python bit...couldn't help it. That line always pops into my head when discussions like this come along. :)
[/foot-in-mouth mode]

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alexwein
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:21 pm Post

Ah, so sorry. This is the not first time I thought someone was responding to me and they weren't! Many apologies for misunderstanding. I should check these things out first. I will from now on to be sure.

For the record, I love Monty Python. :)

Alexandria

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Maria
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:43 pm Post

Khadrelt wrote:...
Or take me and my father, who have gender-nuetral names. People (mostly telemarketers and others of that ilk) often automatically assume I'm a woman. It doesn't offend me, though...I have to much to worry about already than getting offended over little things like that. :wink:


Help! Help! I'm being repressed!



Khadreit,

I read your message to Alex (which is a short form for the female version in Germany as well), so I am in good mood :wink:.

The fact that people assume that you are a woman tells a lot about the American society, something good I would say. I have quite a female name, and I have a doctoral degree and work at university. This makes me Dr. Maria (Surname). But people who do not know me do not accept that. As a university person I get many letters addressed to either "Herr Dr. Maria ---" or they realise that it is a female name and say it cannot be true and change it to "Herr Dr. Mario ---" These are letters personnaly to me, myself.

As a woman I sometimes publish and realise that it is better to publish as M. (surname) rather than Maria (surname). Particularly if publishing in a male field like computers. It easier to be taken serious.

I made different experiences as well, and I had wonderful colleagues in a physics department in a German university. But my experiences are half this half that. No man would ever experience things like that.

And now, I would like to meet you in your foot-in-mouth-mode on the street, I could introduce you to my husband who stresses every morning that he _has_ to go to work because his role as man supresses him, he cannot realise his deepest wish: to clean the house and wash the underwear.

Have a nice day,
Maria

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Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:44 am Post

Maria wrote:And now, I would like to meet you in your foot-in-mouth-mode on the street, I could introduce you to my husband who stresses every morning that he _has_ to go to work because his role as man supresses him, he cannot realise his deepest wish: to clean the house and wash the underwear.

Have a nice day,
Maria


Hahaha! A dream man! I am terrible at keeping the house clean, but unfortunately, so is my husband, so the house is often messy.
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fehnman
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:29 am Post

Maria wrote:
Khadrelt wrote:...
Or take me and my father, who have gender-nuetral names. People (mostly telemarketers and others of that ilk) often automatically assume I'm a woman.


The fact that people assume that you are a woman tells a lot about the American society, something good I would say. I have quite a female name, and I have a doctoral degree and work at university. This makes me Dr. Maria (Surname). But people who do not know me do not accept that. As a university person I get many letters addressed to either "Herr Dr. Maria ---" or they realise that it is a female name and say it cannot be true and change it to "Herr Dr. Mario ---" These are letters personnaly to me, myself.

As a woman I sometimes publish and realise that it is better to publish as M. (surname) rather than Maria (surname). Particularly if publishing in a male field like computers. It easier to be taken serious.

I made different experiences as well, and I had wonderful colleagues in a physics department in a German university. But my experiences are half this half that. No man would ever experience things like that.


Well, Khadrelt does. :)

And why does the fact, that some americans assume him to be a woman, tell you "something good" about the society he's living in? Assuming you're a man is bad, sexist and biased, but assuming a man is a woman is good?

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Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:08 am Post

I just read on another site:

"The user can decide how many windows they wish to have open at any one time".

Should we express ourselves in similar ways?

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Maria
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:58 am Post

fehnman wrote:...
And why does the fact, that some americans assume him to be a woman, tell you "something good" about the society he's living in? Assuming you're a man is bad, sexist and biased, but assuming a man is a woman is good?


The fact that people who grow up in a certain culture assume that someone is male if sex is not mentioned shows that the culture is biased towards male sex. I do not value that cultural trait. So, if in another culture people _can_ think at first that someone they do not know, _could_ be a woman (i.e. not assuming at first that it must be a man), is a good thing. Because it shows that the culture or society does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that default is male.

Secondly, being male is being of higher value (at least in the academic world), which you can infer from the same post of mine. The letters and emails that address me as "Mr." (Herr) from Germany have increased significantly since I got my doctoral degree. This means that people in Germany still assume that a doctor working at university _must_ be male. It cannot be a woman, even if _he_ has the most female name you can think of, a name that is understood all over the world.

Maria
Last edited by Maria on Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Maria
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:00 am Post

Timotheus wrote:I just read on another site:

"The user can decide how many windows they wish to have open at any one time".

Should we express ourselves in similar ways?


Timotheus,

I do not think we should. It is a problem, and getting around is difficult, sometimes impossible. But sometimes it is, like in your example:

"Users can decide how many windows they wish to have open at any one time".

Maria