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Jaysen
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Tue May 05, 2009 6:24 pm Post

studentSarah wrote:
Jaysen wrote:Any comparison to you personally depends on how often your knickers are lobbed.

Ah, Jaysen I have apparently misled you - to the best of my knowledge, my knickers have never been lobbed. At least not by me.

Vic-k will be disappointed…
studentSarah wrote:
Jaysen wrote:one could consider you a semi-frequent lobber of glyph-nickers. A lobber with superb style, but a lobber nonetheless.

Now that is a great compliment, I think, so thank you.

Received as intended ;)
studentSarah wrote:Music intrigues me because I think it's fascination is probably evolutionary in some way, though for me I often find that what hooks me is a very mood-dependent thing: what blisses me out one day can irritate me the next.

As a creationist who believes in "in species evolution" I believe there is much to support both your statements. I would wrap them into a single statement similar to
really irritating person who is typing this message wrote:Evolution seems to suggest that language center development culminates in the ability to express and associate emotions with structured, multi-phonic and poly-rhythmic, arrangements.

Let's see how long it takes to start a fight over that!
studentSarah wrote:I think I am loved. OK, I know I am. But I do have to knit my own stuff :)

Jaysen wrote:Darn you Sarah, see what you did? Made me get all philosophical.

Not a bad thing, surely? To meditate on the fact that you are loved probably prompted you to remind those that love you, that you love them too - and I know that can't be a bad thing. :D

Sarah

You don't have any kids, do you? Otherwise you would know just how bad it can be…

;)
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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studentSarah
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Tue May 05, 2009 6:49 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:As a creationist who believes in "in species evolution"...

As an atheist who believes in a personal spirituality, I'm dying to know how this works. Care to enlighten me, if it's not too personal[1]? I promise not to start a fight.

Jaysen wrote:You don't have any kids, do you? Otherwise you would know just how bad it can be…

I've been rumbled! :D I'd rather donate my ovaries to medical science. I have six nieces and nephews ranging from 3 to 21 years old - enough already. The gene pool would not benefit from my polluting input, in any case :wink:

Sarah

[1] I have learned that sex is ok to talk about, politics is dodgy in some situations, but discussing religion can be like dropping a ton of rubber balls on a field of full of land-mines.
"Very often people don't listen to you when you speak to them. It's only when you talk to yourself that they prick up their ears" ~ John Ashbery

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AmberV
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Tue May 05, 2009 7:11 pm Post

Image + Image =
Image
?
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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Jaysen
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Tue May 05, 2009 7:58 pm Post

studentSarah wrote:
Jaysen wrote:As a creationist who believes in "in species evolution"...

As an atheist who believes in a personal spirituality, I'm dying to know how this works. Care to enlighten me, if it's not too personal[1]? I promise not to start a fight.


I had a big long treatise proving my position when it dawned on me you didn't want proof, but an explanation.

To make it as plain as possible I believe the following as it related to creation and evolution.
• There is a divine being (God).
• The Divine created what we know/see/experience as well as life.
• The Divine created a world that would change and creatures that would change (evolve) with it.
• The change is managed by rules set in place by the Divine.
• Man calls these rules science.

Please note this is not a theological point but an explanation of how God and evolution are reconciled. If you want to talk theology we should do it via email or PM as I don't want KB to be dragged into a debate that continues to show how unloving and un-accepting "people of faith" can be.

studentSarah wrote:[1] I have learned that sex is ok to talk about, politics is dodgy in some situations, but discussing religion can be like dropping a ton of rubber balls on a field of full of land-mines.

This is because the majority of "christians" are unthinking twits. There, I said it and now you know one of the greats shames of modern Christianity. The Church (Protestant and catholic alike) has become a bastion of ignorance. We have placed "faith in man" above "faith in God" and emphasized blind conformity over prayerful consideration.

And before anyone jumps down my throat please re-read that entire paragraph. The generalization is accurate. Consider that the audience and think. If you want to argue please email or PM me and save poor KB from having to kick us all out.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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AmberV
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Tue May 05, 2009 8:09 pm Post

My key question in there would be: what did the divine element create? Complex organisms much like ourselves, or perhaps only the necessary proteins and molecules for replicating life? What I'm getting at: How does the fossil record, which is integral to the theory of evolution, reconcile with certain metaphysical questions like the nature/effect of sin and so forth that are common to Christian belief systems. At what point in biological and geological history was the redemption aspect implemented---or do you see the fossil record as incorrectly interpreted entirely, and simply have no problem with the biological study of allele frequencies and so forth.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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KB
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Tue May 05, 2009 10:30 pm Post

Who created God? Wait, it's turtles all the way down... ;)

Actually, folk are free to talk about what they like here, though I will split this over into the "And Now For That Coffee" area of the forum. And I will ask that everyone is respectful of one another, as this sort of discussion on a forum can too easily get into an intractable and angry debate (not that this applies to any of the posts so far, but such a discussion here does make me a little nervous). As soon as there is a hint of insult, I'll be closing the thread (I read that the longer a forum thread gets, the closer to 100% the chances get of someone calling someone else a Nazi, so let's try to avoid that). It's no secret I'm an atheist myself (and you can't prove a negative :) ), but I'll do my best to stay out of the discussion as I tend to get a bit heated about this sort of thing and like and respect Jaysen and others way too much to disagree (see, I don't think everyone "of faith" is un-accepting, despite Jaysen's intimation!).

All the best,
Keith

P.S. And no matter what you believe, the Battlestar Galactica finale was still s**t. :)
P.P.S. You can tell it's a sensitive topic when smileys start to proliferate.
P.P.P.S. Except for the Battlestar Galactica bit. I meant that.

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AmberV
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Tue May 05, 2009 10:35 pm Post

KB wrote:I read that the longer a forum thread gets, the closer to 100% the chances get of someone calling someone else a Nazi, so let's try to avoid that.


Godwin's Law :)
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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KB
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Tue May 05, 2009 10:37 pm Post

That's the one. I think it came up before and you linked to it then, too. All this has happened before... Wait, noooo...!

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AmberV
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Tue May 05, 2009 10:40 pm Post

I think there is a corollary for that condition, too... Hmm.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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Tue May 05, 2009 10:47 pm Post

Genesis has two different accounts of creation:

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Stark difference: humans are the image of God, or they are dust of the ground. If both are true, then the earth is sacred and so are its creatures, soil, and climate.

Darwin considered that possibility in his Autobiography and drew this conclusion:

When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.

I cannot throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic.

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Mollys Mum
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Tue May 05, 2009 10:49 pm Post

Keith, am I allowed to ask Jaysen what he thinks of Sarah Palin?

:twisted:

(Jaysen, you're among friends here, of all persuasions. I'm kind of a creationist too, though I haven't thought it out nearly as neatly as you have. And I'm not at all sure about the nature of the creative "force," but jeez, there are an awful lot of spectacularly impressive patterns around, here and in the rest of the known--and supposedly unknown--universe, so either something had a hand in all this or a lot more monkeys are closeted somewhere typing out Shakespeare that are dreamt of in my philosophy.)

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Jaysen
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Wed May 06, 2009 4:50 am Post

KB, I thank you for your respect and as I hope you know I am not going to jeopardize your reputation. If you call a halt, I will always comply. For the record all three of the idiots here are well known even when one of us is missing!

In no particular order.

The problem most have is not one of "faith" (substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen). We all have faith. When is the last time any of us saw an electron? Yet we have evidence of its existence, this post is evidence of electrons. We know that the current models of atomic and particle physics are approximations of reality suited to an explanation we can comprehend. You can add string theory and quantum sciences to this. I would suggest that much of what we know as theology falls into this same category; approximations of reality suited to an explanation we can comprehend. We can't see electrons, we have evidence of their existence, so we make a model to explain it. s/electrons/God/ and this is where we start.

The fossil record is consistent with the concept of creation in literal terms. Per Genesis 3:14 a classification of animal was cursed to "slink on your belly". In practical terms this could be a source of mass extinction of a large number species from a family that currently "slinks on" its belly. The fossil record would also be supported by the flood of Noah. A global flood in the time line noted in Genesis 9 would result in massive distribution of sedimentary material.

Age of the fossil record is a matter of dispute which leaves some casualties on both sides. I hold that the "years" counted in biblical terms are probably accurate. While I understand the science behind carbon dating I question the ability to know how much C14 was present through direct ingestion vs. leeching. I will admit to coming to a point where answering this particular question no longer mattered to me and I chose faith over science. There are others much more qualified than I am to discuss this. Some of their explanations get into rotational and orbital decays altering measurements of days, others get into "multiple use theory" of the "void" that became our home, still others move in druid's path of "2 different lines of man", one pure one impure (we are in the latter). Enough of that.

As to what was created, the simple answer is "everything". From the sub-atomic to the homo-sapiens we all originate from Him (english neuter is masculine, I am not being sexist). Theories abound as to if we are "recycled" matter from previous creations to if we are spontaneous extensions of energy. While some try to utilize string, quantum and various other scientific theory I again choose my faith. If you s/Agnostic/Believer on the last line from Darwin you have me. I will explain why later.

The sin nature is the problem that really sticks in one's eye. The idea that we are wrong from the get go with no choosing of our own seems to point to a heartless and spiteful God. I think that this is an understandable conclusion while simultaneously disagreeing with it. The idea is actually inherent in evolution: an descendent inherits traits from its predecessor. If we consider what the fall entailed, eating the fruit of the tree that made us aware of good and evil, this inherited trait is knowledge. The knowledge you have ensures survival and will be passed to the next generation. Right on down to you and me.

So what was wrong with this knowledge? It had nothing to do with the knowledge but the rebellion against God. He said "don't" but they did. We now have the knowledge and are accomplices by default. Much like the guy who hitches a ride and winds up in jail for drug possession, it wasn't his, but he is guilty by association.

If one really wants to read a good apologetic on why a "good and just God allows man to suffer" (which is what we do under the sin nature) look into C. S. Lewis' The problem of Pain. While he deals with the physical suffering, the case of inherited sin is made in a manner that is easy to understand.

Before I point out why I keep choosing what seems to be the "blind faith" route let me address druid's image vs sacred earth point at the same time I answer amber on the redemption.

Druid is right on both accounts. The Earth is sacred and we were to be the caretakers of it. We have failed miserably haven't we? and we ARE made in His image. I can take wood and carve it into an image of myself, but it wont be me, right? It would still be wood. If I were to value that wooden image and it was taken from me I could offer a reward to get it back. Our model breaks down at this point because my wooden image is not a sentient being capable of making choices and we are. It is that "sentient" part that we call the soul that is truly the image of God. The soul is housed for a brief 70 years (if we are lucky) in a shell of dust. The soul and shell are corrupted by the inherited sin, and God has offered a reward for our return. This is the redemption that Christian faiths call salvation. We mark this redemption as the resurrection of Christ.

The implementation of this redemption was marked at the time of the fall. Genesis 3 records the cursing of mankind as well as the outline of the coming redemption. The promise is that we will be restored to a "pre-sin state". What is the evidence of this? Good question. Let's save that for another time. I still owe you a "why do you choose faith" answer.

It comes down to one point for me. Ready? Evolution. In my mind if there was no God then evolution would have weeded out the conscience a long time ago. The conscience is not a benefit to the species. Remorse, guilt, regret. No need for those. Seems to me that we have something in us that is outside evolution/nature and is hence supernatural, the "breath of life", or evolution stopped working. If we didn't struggle to keep nonviable infants alive we would be evolving only the strongest genes. But we have ethical issues with the very idea of letting grown adults choose to end their suffering let alone the idea that some children are simply not fit to live (this is an argument to illustrate a point, not my personal view). This goes against reason if we subscribe to evolution as a basis for our existence. That leave me with a Creator. Hence my choice.

Well past my bedtime. I will pick this up again tomorrow.

Hopefully I have made an understandable explanation of my position. If there is anything you find offensive please let me know directly. My intent is not to offend but to explain. Any offense is both unintentional and counter productive. If anyone wants to ask a question privately please feel free to PM or eMail me. While not the smartest guy around I have spent a little time trying to understand what I believe and why.

Mum,

Palin is a bit of an embarrassment to us poor republicans (please don't ask me why I am a republican, I am not sure I know). Bush, then Bush again and then suggesting Palin… Please God, end our suffering.

If you read the Bible, look at Paul's description of himself in Philippians 3:5-6. Not an Israelite, but the idea is the same. All the right denominations, all the right private schools, all the right theological education, just to realize that the church misses the big point.

So yes, I think about this stuff more than anything else. But not in the terms of "how do I preach it". More "how did You intend it".

Make sense?
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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kewms
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Wed May 06, 2009 7:03 am Post

Jaysen wrote:It comes down to one point for me. Ready? Evolution. In my mind if there was no God then evolution would have weeded out the conscience a long time ago. The conscience is not a benefit to the species. Remorse, guilt, regret. No need for those.


Given the contempt many of your co-religionists have for evolution, it's refreshing to see you cite it as a proof of the existence of God.

Still, I disagree with your argument. Remorse (and its close cousin, empathy) is very helpful if man is seen as a social, rather than solitary animal. In fact, evidence of conscience has been found in non-human primates: it allows bad chimpanzees to get back on the good side of their clans.

Katherine
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Jaysen
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Wed May 06, 2009 2:06 pm Post

Katherine,

Not being smart person I may be using the wrong words. The conscience and it's lingering on the example emotions is the problem, not the emotions themselves. How often to other primates commit suicide due to guilt over an action? I agree that a demonstration of remorse is a survival trait that can be explained by evolution. Living life haunted by that remorse is not.

As to my "co-religionists" … we have a long standing feud. I feel that God created things to let us wonder at them. We SHOULD question "why" and "how". Science uncovers the rules he put in place a creation. In my view science is working as much to show us God as it is to disprove Him. In my mind a person who really believes in God has nothing to fear as science will eventually expose Him to us. Crazy, but the logical conclusion of believing in a Creator.

What truly bogles my mind is the militant stance that my "co-religionists" take on anything that forces them to answer simple questions. If you can't answer the simple ones why should we trust you with the complex ones? Is the concept of the trinity really as important as "why didn't God heal my baby?" The latter is simple and meaningful. But know one wants to answer it. When you come to something as important, and simple as evolution, or abortion, or even right to die laws, they want to focus on the abstract theological areas of dispute instead of the real point that we "Christians" should be focusing on: addressing the needs of our fellow man.

BTW evolution of a species is not in question for me. It is the origin of all through evolution that I question. I have seen enough changes in my short life time to know that a species WILL adapt to its environment and hence will alter over time. I have little patience for those of my faith who say "evolution is not from God".
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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kewms
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Wed May 06, 2009 4:10 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:Not being smart person I may be using the wrong words. The conscience and it's lingering on the example emotions is the problem, not the emotions themselves. How often to other primates commit suicide due to guilt over an action? I agree that a demonstration of remorse is a survival trait that can be explained by evolution. Living life haunted by that remorse is not.


Ah, yes. An important distinction.

As to my "co-religionists" … we have a long standing feud. I feel that God created things to let us wonder at them. We SHOULD question "why" and "how". Science uncovers the rules he put in place a creation. In my view science is working as much to show us God as it is to disprove Him. In my mind a person who really believes in God has nothing to fear as science will eventually expose Him to us. Crazy, but the logical conclusion of believing in a Creator.


As Galileo reputedly said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the Creator who endowed us with reason and intellect intended for us to forgo their use."

Katherine
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