I know you are, but what am I?

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devinganger
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
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Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:36 am Post

logaandm wrote:
lunk wrote:
logaandm wrote:my post is not exactly on topic and I tend to be wordy as it is my nature.

A shorter post is more likely to be read in detail.
Think first, then write a short focused post, click Preview and read it yourself, edit and then post.t



I am of the view the world is more complicated than the 30 second, superficial, ADD inspired click bait often thought clever these days. This view may not consistent with participation in Forums such as this, but there it is. Feel free not to read it.


Lunk didn't say "superficial." In fact, he said, "focused."

Good writers can tackle complexity with conciseness and focus.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4229
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:23 am Post

MagickMatt wrote:As a customer I feel very strung along and lied too.
melleesmith wrote:Hi! I'm Mel, the author of the first post.

Why did you use two different forum users? :shock:
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:05 am Post

melleesmith wrote:
Astaff wrote:First link - not happy with delays and lack of Android and rather than try V3 Win beta, searched others, ending up with what sounds an abysmal kludge including using actual cards that reflect chosen alternatives being missing so many Scrivener features.


Hi! I'm Mel, the author of the first post. Someone backlinked to the post in this thread which is driving traffic to my site, so I wanted to see what the discussion was about.

Second - not trying to be precious here - I don't appreciate my writing process being called an "abysmal kludge." That's beyond rude. Might seem primitive to you, but handwritten scene cards are helpful for me. Much more helpful than Scrivener's cards, which I often forgot about and left to sit gathering dust somewhere in the binder.

Finally, as someone else here posted, different strokes for different folks. I used Scrivener for almost a year and loved it. Which you would know had you actually read the full post. Heck, even the first two lines. But I need something that works across devices, and I, like many, are tired of waiting for this update. I don't deserve to be put down for that..


Perhaps the reply is a bit precious, or fragile ego. I was hardly ‘putting you down’. I was responding to a list of threads as example of ‘people leaving Scrivener’. I stand by the comment it seems a kludge when the ‘cards’ functionality is built into Scrivener.

‘Finally, as someone else posted different strokes’ was my comment in summation on the same post you took offence to, so you quoted and took offence to part of my post but didn’t give accreditation to the part you chose to agree with.

Pr
Prometheus
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:21 pm Post

You know, every so often I cruise over here to see what's going on, and it's the same assholes dogpiling people for any criticism about WinV3.


L&L is doing a terrific job of turning people off because they refuse to rein those people in and by essentially condoning that this is hostile territory.

And before you usual suspects dog pile me: I don't give a crap about what you think about this, about the release of WinV3, if it ever gets released, or anything else. Your posturing, sarcasm, and general nastiness will turn people off. I know two people personally who have decided to drop Scrivener - and yes, they were running 1.x, in production, which, as a few of you specifically and snarkily ask about, as if v3 has anything to do with that - because of what they've seen in this forum when they had questions about something and I wasn't readily available to answer them, since I was the one who recommended it to them in the first place. And before you start carping that this specific area is not tech support, they, and I, know that very well, thank you. But they decided to roam around a little before posting, and came across all this nonsense. You're hurting the same company you claim to love so dearly. It's annoying and unnecessary.

I will never be able to fathom why L&L or the mods they claim to have for this particular area of the forum allow it. I would never allow this in the business I own and run.

This might even get removed, but at this point, I'm beyond caring. I'd rather recommend other applications to people over Scrivener even if those apps do not have all the same functionality, and will do so, citing this forum as a reason. A product is never just about the product. It's about the company as well - and the company that company keeps.

We now return you to the usual people showing up in every thread to pound on intruders to this little bubble.

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kewms
Posts: 6548
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:You know, every so often I cruise over here to see what's going on, and it's the same assholes dogpiling people for any criticism about WinV3.


You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ki
Kinsey
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:06 pm
Platform: Mac + Windows

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:58 pm Post

kewms wrote:
You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine


It would, however, be significantly more friendly. However, the suggestion is to ask them to desist from being repeatedly unpleasant. However many thousands of posts they have, the plain nasty, rude and petulant ones are left unchallenged. A cursory glance around recent threads would provide as many examples of rudeness as helpfulness.They (the very small handful of posters to whom I refer) are a significant reason why I (and maybe others) don’t contribute more frequently. Make of that what you will.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:41 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:
kewms wrote:
You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine


It would, however, be significantly more friendly. However, the suggestion is to ask them to desist from being repeatedly unpleasant. However many thousands of posts they have, the plain nasty, rude and petulant ones are left unchallenged. A cursory glance around recent threads would provide as many examples of rudeness as helpfulness.They (the very small handful of posters to whom I refer) are a significant reason why I (and maybe others) don’t contribute more frequently. Make of that what you will.


So, banning those people would be significantly more friendly. Everyone who’s left could sit around the campfire bitching about the delay to to V3 and generally feeling good about how all the helpers have been banned. What a pile of smelly stuff!

As Katherine has said, those you want banned are amongst the most helpful. Are you going to step in to fill the void as you claim? Bullshit! You’ve shown no indication of the level of knowledge you claim, nor any indication of a willingness to help. You do show every indication along with all of your campfire buddies of existing solely to bitch and claim you’re going elsewhere, even claiming to be actively driving people away from Scrivener (who should be banned?).

Just a totally weird thought....If you did actually chip in to help your now 29 complaints about delay and how people who defend L&L have hurt your feelings would carry some weight, but no, it’s just bitch, bitch. Current score 29/0.

Make of that what you will.

Fe
Felinfoel
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:49 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:54 pm Post

Good grief. The forums are advertised as a place to find information and solve problems but it seems to be populated with immature rants and some sort of ongoing battle of long time users. Some of this is outright childish, and some like the last post is pretty offensive. Think I made a mistake, not what I was expecting from a forum for a writing application.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 pm Post

Hyker wrote: Semantics plays a part in the argument over whether L&L actually says there's going to be a Scrivener 3, or if it's only implied. I can tell you it makes no difference because the consumer (myself) is led to believe there WILL be a release. But therein lies the confusion because it's been on the back burner for years...YEARS...and that undermines confidence not only in the actual release, but in the capabilities of the Dev Team. The only impression I get is that L&L markets itself through scheming and shady advertising. And if this is how the topic is handled, through opinionated and chaotic forums, then I can only assume that any attempts at finding assistance for true and related technical concerns will not be easily accessed.

Bottom line- Unless someone can assure me that the customer experience (which is valued so highly by myself and other consumers) isn't going to be a nightmare, and that L&L will act ethically and with integrity by giving truthful updates to it's customer base, then I will pass on Scrivener. It's not so much about the product as the customer service and experience. Please wake up L&L and give me some hope.


I don't know how you come about the 'scheming and shady advertising' - Scrivener is a working product V3 for Mac, 1.9 for Win with an actively developing Beta 3 for Win - all you need do is look in the beta forum to see the ongoing achievements
You can see the truthful updates in the beta forum amongst others

Read any of the forums where people ask technical questions and you will see L&L staff and experienced users giving quality assistance

Take a serious look at the content of this thread and similar ones that you seem to have issue with. The common thread is someone with their very few posts attacking L&L, complaining about promises never met (Yes as L&L state they are horribly late). Those same posters NEVER ask questions about how to get the most from Scrivener, contribute in any way other than to bad mouth the product, make claims of going elsewhere (but always hang around here to continue the badmouth).

Yes experienced and passionate users get defensive and call out the hypocrisy of those attacking the product and company.

Now go back and look at all the other thousands of threads where people ask usage questions and look at the freely given intelligent help from L&L staff and all the passionate and experienced users. Those threads and posts outnumber threads like this thousands to one.

Now ask yourself again - do you seriously stand by the 'scheming and shady advertising' comment?

Anyone seriously looking at the overall content and atmosphere of the forum can only come to the conclusions

1. The vast majority of members and posts are genuine asking for and receiving quality help both from L&L staff and passionate users.

2. The VERY few threads (by comparison) such as this seem to be initiated and perpetuated by a VERY small group ( who's only contribution to the forum is these posts) intent on a flame war, attacking L&L, the product, the forum and expounding theories of mass exodus from Scrivener unless L&L give a firm release date and subject themselves to ritual flagellation for failing to release V3 Win last year, earlier this year before the product was ready for prime time.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:26 am Post

I’m one of those warned. Seeing as I’ve had a gut-full of the complainers I choose to leave the forum with a healthy ‘up yours’ to the fragile complainer a few posts above.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:00 am Post

I should add, I’ve requested all my posts be deleted so this and others should disappear shortly if that request us honoured.

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4229
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:35 am Post

Astaff wrote:I should add, I’ve requested all my posts be deleted
Why?
Don’t deny us the possibility to read your writing :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Pr
Prometheus
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:50 am Post

kewms wrote:
Prometheus wrote:You know, every so often I cruise over here to see what's going on, and it's the same assholes dogpiling people for any criticism about WinV3.


You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine


Oh, excuse me for not realizing that in order to participate and offer one's own criticisms, one must be all over the forums, generating thousands of posts and that any contribution from someone with x posts is somehow less worthy than that from someone with x+n posts. My bad. I use the bulk of my time during any day to do the thing your stalwart defenders snidely suggest people do instead of offering their feedback in an area of the forum that is clearly labeled feedback: writing.

I do not recall asking you to ban anyone. I do recall pointing out that having a forum rule of "be nice" is useless if nobody is bothering to even attempt to enforce it. Yes, my posts are all in this particular area of the forum. I dislike bullies. Intensely. It doesn't matter what the dogpilers are doing elsewhere in your forum, it matters what they are doing in THIS forum if someone comes to offer their commentary on anything ranging from frustration to viewpoints of the software development cycle. Here, those people get sarcastic and rude responses. Yes, they can, as one pointed out, reply to the poster they see as simply bitching to bitch about delays. But if your rule is "be nice", and they violate it over and over again, belittling other users of your own product, you might as well declare this area the wild west. I don't think I'm asking for much that you allow people to give their feedback on a product in a forum area that you designated for feedback without being attacked by your kneejerk defenders. Even if they don't represent the company, the tacit allowance of their insults to those who offer an opinion that is anything but glowing will assuredly sway at least some people that this is not a community to which they want to belong. It isn't a good look for the company.

So now the dogpilers will do what they normally do, and as this very thread has shown with people posting exactly the same thing I'm talking about, L&L will do nothing to rein in their dogs. Even, as shown by another poster, when those offering criticisms also do things like report bugs they've found, only to be sarcastically told not to do the thing about which they're reporting the bug. It's astonishing the behavior you allow because those x+n posters basically work as free tech support for you.

Tw
Twolane
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:39 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:29 pm Post

excuse me for not realizing that...


Windows V3 has not been scrapped.

You are excused. Evidently, it is not obvs that Windows V3 has not been scrapped. Run along now.

Pr
PrudentSoy
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:52 am
Platform: Windows

Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:29 am Post

Prometheus wrote:
kewms wrote:
Prometheus wrote:You know, every so often I cruise over here to see what's going on, and it's the same assholes dogpiling people for any criticism about WinV3.


You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine


Oh, excuse me for not realizing that in order to participate and offer one's own criticisms, one must be all over the forums, generating thousands of posts and that any contribution from someone with x posts is somehow less worthy than that from someone with x+n posts. My bad. I use the bulk of my time during any day to do the thing your stalwart defenders snidely suggest people do instead of offering their feedback in an area of the forum that is clearly labeled feedback: writing.

I do not recall asking you to ban anyone. I do recall pointing out that having a forum rule of "be nice" is useless if nobody is bothering to even attempt to enforce it. Yes, my posts are all in this particular area of the forum. I dislike bullies. Intensely. It doesn't matter what the dogpilers are doing elsewhere in your forum, it matters what they are doing in THIS forum if someone comes to offer their commentary on anything ranging from frustration to viewpoints of the software development cycle. Here, those people get sarcastic and rude responses. Yes, they can, as one pointed out, reply to the poster they see as simply bitching to bitch about delays. But if your rule is "be nice", and they violate it over and over again, belittling other users of your own product, you might as well declare this area the wild west. I don't think I'm asking for much that you allow people to give their feedback on a product in a forum area that you designated for feedback without being attacked by your kneejerk defenders. Even if they don't represent the company, the tacit allowance of their insults to those who offer an opinion that is anything but glowing will assuredly sway at least some people that this is not a community to which they want to belong. It isn't a good look for the company.

So now the dogpilers will do what they normally do, and as this very thread has shown with people posting exactly the same thing I'm talking about, L&L will do nothing to rein in their dogs. Even, as shown by another poster, when those offering criticisms also do things like report bugs they've found, only to be sarcastically told not to do the thing about which they're reporting the bug. It's astonishing the behavior you allow because those x+n posters basically work as free tech support for you.


I found it easier to move on. I moved on from Mac to Windows. I then moved on from Scrivener to Word-Excel-OneNote trio to do my work now. I just pop in here to see how things are going with v.3. I'm guessing it will be a year before it is completed and will still not have feature parity with Mac. Either way, The MS Office works just fine and better than Scrivener for me at this time.

I just ignore or stay out of forums in different places where the energy isn't positive. Anyway, I guess we have to live with what we have in terms of software.