I know you are, but what am I?

User avatar
Jaysen
Posts: 6278
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:00 am
Platform: Mac + Windows
Location: East-Be-Jesus-Nowhere SC, USA

Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:38 pm Post

lunk wrote:
devinganger wrote:
Jaysen wrote:It does help that for a few of us (I hope you are ok with me including you in my group) are, by nature, donkey voids*.
I'm honored to be in any group you are in, sir. Well...most any group.

I’m more like Groucho Marx:

"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."
Groucho Marx

I believe that makes you a member :)
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

ImageImage

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2189
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:16 am Post

Jaysen wrote:
lunk wrote:
devinganger wrote:I'm honored to be in any group you are in, sir. Well...most any group.

I’m more like Groucho Marx:

"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."
Groucho Marx

I believe that makes you a member :)


Tou-friggin'-che.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

User avatar
Sanguinius
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:16 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:18 am Post

I, too, would like to see the many reports of users leaving Scrivener. Personally, whenever I see threads on Reddit, Twitter, and other forums asking the best tool for writing, the number one answer is almost always Scrivener. I'm seeing people recommending others start using the program, not give up on it. For one thing, why would people leave, if they've already got the perfectly functional and incredible Scrivener 1.9x? It does almost everything a person needs, so what advantage is there in giving it up, simply because the next version hasn't yet arrived?

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4237
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:29 pm Post

cmerritt1351 wrote:I'm coming to the conclusion my purchase for win3 was just a donation to L&L.
So you haven't been using version 1.9, the version you bought?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

ca
canlin05
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:28 pm
Platform: Windows

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:56 pm Post

Sanguinius wrote:I, too, would like to see the many reports of users leaving Scrivener. Personally, whenever I see threads on Reddit, Twitter, and other forums asking the best tool for writing, the number one answer is almost always Scrivener. I'm seeing people recommending others start using the program, not give up on it. For one thing, why would people leave, if they've already got the perfectly functional and incredible Scrivener 1.9x? It does almost everything a person needs, so what advantage is there in giving it up, simply because the next version hasn't yet arrived?


I've seen numerous posts on Reddit about people dumping Scrivener for other tools that seem better able to offer updated products to their users.

Seems to be a recurring theme on these L&L forums, that we should all just shut up and learn to love using a beta product.

Frankly, I'm tired of the condescension. Time to put up or shut up.

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1722
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:17 pm Post

canlin05 wrote:I've seen numerous posts on Reddit about people dumping Scrivener for other tools that seem better able to offer updated products to their users.
Yes, I keep hearing about these mythical other tools, which always remain nameless. I'm unaware of any similarly priced long form writing environment on Windows OS that has anywhere near the feature set of Scriv v1, much less the v3 beta. Perhaps there's one or many out there. But for some reason, despite your willingness to occasionally come here and gripe, you refuse to share,
canlin05 wrote:Time to put up or shut up.
My thoughts exactly.
I’m just a customer.

ca
canlin05
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:28 pm
Platform: Windows

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:13 pm Post

JimRac wrote:
canlin05 wrote:I've seen numerous posts on Reddit about people dumping Scrivener for other tools that seem better able to offer updated products to their users.
Yes, I keep hearing about these mythical other tools, which always remain nameless. I'm unaware of any similarly priced long form writing environment on Windows OS that has anywhere near the feature set of Scriv v1, much less the v3 beta. Perhaps there's one or many out there. But for some reason, despite your willingness to occasionally come here and gripe, you refuse to share,
canlin05 wrote:Time to put up or shut up.
My thoughts exactly.


Just wow. I apologize. Your comment isn't really condescension; it's outright derision.

You're right, I don't have almost 1700 comments on a forum. I've got a life. I'm as entitled to post my opinion as anyone, even if it's only occasionally.

Buy yourself some manners, son.

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4237
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:14 pm Post

canlin05 wrote:... tools that seem better able to offer updated products to their users.

What? Who cares about updates? The only thing that matters is if you can use the product in a productive way or not.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:50 pm Post

First link - not happy with delays and lack of Android and rather than try V3 Win beta, searched others, ending up with what sounds an abysmal kludge including using actual cards that reflect chosen alternatives being missing so many Scrivener features.

2. A collection of posts mainly covering some of the gripes on threads here. Most seem to be sticking with Scrivener.

3. Predates Scrivener iOS, complains about the lack of iOS version so don’t know why you bothered adding it - just trying to get the numbers up?

4. General discussion of alternatives, including Markdown, free software etc

5. Add for Novelize (buying link) with incorrect/incomplete Scrivener info.

6. Bit of a bitch session because of V3 updating project files and no ready opening of same file on V1/2 and V3 installations. Mostly about backwards compatibility.

7. Yes the writer complained about synching with Scrivener, yet the examples point solidly to user error, not any fault with Scrivener.

The writer correctly states Ulysses is better for blogging, which it is with its quick connect to Wordpress sites.

He also states that Scrivener remains far better than Ulysses for long form writing.

8. Atomic Scribbler forum. Couple of people who prefer the AS simplicity and couple of posts supporting Scrivener, including one poor person who got jumped on because he liked Scrivener - pretty much ‘how dare you say nice things about Scrivener on the AS forum’.

So far from showing hoards of people abandoning Scrivener, it shows one or two who slagged L&L, some who preferred a simpler solution, and others who support Scrivener.

Yes if you search the web you can find some answers that support any hypothesis, yet this particular post ignores many dozens (hundreds) of sites with glowing support for Scrivener.

Pretty much makes the post an exercise in futility that proves nothing other than ‘different strokes for different folks’.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:22 pm Post

2011 13" MBP CPU is 2.3-2.7GHz dual core
2020 13" MBP CPU is 1.4- 3.9 GHz quad core (base 2019 model was dual core)

There are many reasons to buy a new MBP, but faster CPU isn't one of them. Better screen and more cores for smoother multi-tasking are at the top of my list. OTOH, I have an old dual core 2015 MBP and I don't notice it being much slower than my 2019 8 core model most of the time.

The latest versions of MacOS will not run on older hardware and that may be a problem for some users.


There are so many errors in this claim. Frequency alone is not an indicator of ‘speed’. macOS runs just fine on older Macs. Though you may have challenges running the very latest versions, there is nothing wrong with any of the older versions if you are not faced with a specific application that demands the latest. Catalina runs fine on gear back to 2012. Thats an 8 yr old system! While Win 10 MAY run on an 8 yr old Win laptop, finding an 8 yr old functioning Win laptop is likely to be a greater challenge :D

The rest if the post also contains basic errors, but as it is a thread about Scrivener Win I won’t write a Mac centric rebuttal screed.

I will say that Win 10 often runs faster on a VM on a MacBook than on a Win machine. (16” i9)

lo
logaandm
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:57 am
Platform: Windows

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:13 am Post

Astaff wrote:
2011 13" MBP CPU is 2.3-2.7GHz dual core
2020 13" MBP CPU is 1.4- 3.9 GHz quad core (base 2019 model was dual core)

There are many reasons to buy a new MBP, but faster CPU isn't one of them. Better screen and more cores for smoother multi-tasking are at the top of my list. OTOH, I have an old dual core 2015 MBP and I don't notice it being much slower than my 2019 8 core model most of the time.

The latest versions of MacOS will not run on older hardware and that may be a problem for some users.


There are so many errors in this claim. Frequency alone is not an indicator of ‘speed’. macOS runs just fine on older Macs. Though you may have challenges running the very latest versions, there is nothing wrong with any of the older versions if you are not faced with a specific application that demands the latest. Catalina runs fine on gear back to 2012. Thats an 8 yr old system! While Win 10 MAY run on an 8 yr old Win laptop, finding an 8 yr old functioning Win laptop is likely to be a greater challenge :D

The rest if the post also contains basic errors, but as it is a thread about Scrivener Win I won’t write a Mac centric rebuttal screed.

I will say that Win 10 often runs faster on a VM on a MacBook than on a Win machine. (16” i9)


Did you even read what I wrote? I state clearly MacOS runs just fine on older hardware. I never said that CPU speed was important, rather I was making the opposite point. You even quote me saying my 2015 dual core MBP runs things just as well as my 8 core 2019 model.

No Windows 10 in a VM does not run quicker on a 16"MBP i9, If yours does then you have not installed Windows 10 bootcamp properly. I have the MBP 16" i9 and have tested. I have never seen any test where a VM runs faster than Bootcamp once the proper drivers are installed. There may be thermal throttling issues when gaming but these are easily overcome by adjusting the power settings.

Apple support states clearly High Sierra is the last supported version for 2011 and earlier models. Later versions can be installed on some models using third party hacks - but no official support and generally no support for GPU's 2011 Models DO NOT HAVE OFFICIAL CATALINA SUPPORT - check the web page.

I did not comment on if people needed to upgrade to the latest MacOS or not. That is up to the end user. I suggested an alternate use for their older MacBook could be to run Windows since many MacOS users still want to run Windows and MacBooks have good hardware.

My entire point was to show that there is probably no need for most users to upgrade their laptop unless they want a better display. Certainly Scrivener probably doesn't need an expensive hardware update for most users.

Since you stated my post if full of inaccuracies, I feel free to say that I will leave it up to the forum members to decide who they will believe. Someone who puts verifiable facts in their post, or someone who has difficulty understanding English.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:41 am Post

No Windows 10 in a VM does not run quicker on a 16"MBP i9, If yours does then you have not installed Windows 10 bootcamp properly. I have the MBP 16" i9 and have tested. I have never seen any test where a VM runs faster than Bootcamp once the proper drivers are installed. There may be thermal throttling issues when gaming but these are easily overcome by adjusting the power settings.

Apple support states clearly High Sierra is the last supported version for 2011 and earlier models. Later versions can be installed on some models using third party hacks - but no official support and generally no support for GPU's 2011 Models DO NOT HAVE OFFICIAL CATALINA SUPPORT - check the web page.


Guess you didn’t read my post that well before pulling the trigger. I never mentioned Bootcamp. I don’t use it because I like to be able to use the two O/Ss side by side. I said my MBP runs Win 10 faster than some dedicated Win machines - FACT! I have 3 Win Machines inc 2 fast i7 with the mbp outpacing them both. I have a 2018 15” mbp and a 2020 16” on my desk and the 16 runs faster than the 15 by a good margin especially when heavily loaded. They both blew my 2013 top spec 15 out of the water on speed. As for your comment on ‘not set up right’, while I choose not to run Bootcamp, all my systems are very much set up right - I have extensive Mac knowledge and training.

I responded to you speed comment by saying there is every reason to upgrade to a later one for speed. there is every good reason to upgrade for the increased speed (not to mention more RAM) You comparison of the published clock frequencies of the two models is no indication of the relative power and speed. So I did comprehend and responded with FACT.

I never mentioned a 2011 Mac - I said 2012 versions can run Catalina and pointed out that is an 8 yr old system. For the 2011, High Sierra is a perfectly useable and most current Mac apps run perfectly well on it. No need to turn a 2011 into a Win machine.

Unlike you, I didn’t descend to personal insults and won’t, but my English comprehension is just fine being educated to 4 Post Grad degrees in New Zealand and Australia, both countries with exceptional, world leading, educational standards. As for ‘verifiable facts’.....

lo
logaandm
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:57 am
Platform: Windows

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:04 pm Post

Astaff wrote:
No Windows 10 in a VM does not run quicker on a 16"MBP i9, If yours does then you have not installed Windows 10 bootcamp properly. I have the MBP 16" i9 and have tested. I have never seen any test where a VM runs faster than Bootcamp once the proper drivers are installed. There may be thermal throttling issues when gaming but these are easily overcome by adjusting the power settings.

Apple support states clearly High Sierra is the last supported version for 2011 and earlier models. Later versions can be installed on some models using third party hacks - but no official support and generally no support for GPU's 2011 Models DO NOT HAVE OFFICIAL CATALINA SUPPORT - check the web page.


Guess you didn’t read my post that well before pulling the trigger. I never mentioned Bootcamp. I don’t use it because I like to be able to use the two O/Ss side by side. I said my MBP runs Win 10 faster than some dedicated Win machines - FACT! I have 3 Win Machines inc 2 fast i7 with the mbp outpacing them both. I have a 2018 15” mbp and a 2020 16” on my desk and the 16 runs faster than the 15 by a good margin especially when heavily loaded. They both blew my 2013 top spec 15 out of the water on speed. As for your comment on ‘not set up right’, while I choose not to run Bootcamp, all my systems are very much set up right - I have extensive Mac knowledge and training.

I responded to you speed comment by saying there is every reason to upgrade to a later one for speed. there is every good reason to upgrade for the increased speed (not to mention more RAM) You comparison of the published clock frequencies of the two models is no indication of the relative power and speed. So I did comprehend and responded with FACT.

I never mentioned a 2011 Mac - I said 2012 versions can run Catalina and pointed out that is an 8 yr old system. For the 2011, High Sierra is a perfectly useable and most current Mac apps run perfectly well on it. No need to turn a 2011 into a Win machine.

Unlike you, I didn’t descend to personal insults and won’t, but my English comprehension is just fine being educated to 4 Post Grad degrees in New Zealand and Australia, both countries with exceptional, world leading, educational standards. As for ‘verifiable facts’.....


I stand by my statement that you did not read my initial post carefully. The only reason I am posting at all is because my original post is not full of inaccuracies, as you have suggested and I stand by them. I want people to use their old MacBooks if it suits their needs, They are great machines but they are at the age where a little maintenance can go a long way.

1. My post was about a 2011 Macbook and if it was too slow. I said no it isn't too slow if running correctly. I gave a couple of common hardware solutions for MacBooks which are actually running slow.

2. 2012 Macbooks were not part of the original discussion. It is something you threw in because...?

3. If you are going to compare MacOS and Windows 10 you need to do it on comparable hardware or your comparison isn't about MacOS or Windows, it is about the differences in hardware and software. I pointed out Windows 10 runs just fine on MacBooks. It is a thread about Scrivener Windows Beta after all.

4. You said my post was full of inaccuracies. It is not and I took that as an insult. You didn't read it carefully. That is obvious since you attributed to me ideas and statements I did not make. If my pointing out you don't seem to read English well as an insult, that is your problem because you didn't take the time to comprehend or check the accuracy of what I wrote. If you had we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

5. I am not telling people to install Windows on their old hardware. I point it out as an option. Your opinion on if that is a good idea or not, is interesting, but it doesn't put me in error. It doesn't even make me a Windows 10 fan. It just means I know that Windows 10 can be installed on older hardware.

6. Old operating systems do not support some newer programs or hardware. Eventually it will catch up to you. What will happen to versions of Scrivener sold on the App store when Big Sur is pushed out is a question every MacOS Scrivener user should ask themselves. What happens when Apple doesn't use Intel anymore? In any event my point is that Windows tends to support older hardware longer than MacOS does. I am demonstrably correct on that as well. Many Mac users repurpose their old hardware to Windows when they upgrade their main machine. Your view may be that they should still run an older version of MacOS, so you choose to comment because I didn't express your opinion on the matter? Express your opinion, leave me out of it. I only pointed out that Windows 10 runs on old MacBooks while the latest versions of MacOS do not. Evangelize MacOS if you want but it doesn't make me incorrect.

7. Windows runs fast in a VM compared to what? If you aren't comparing it to bootcamp then your statement is at best your opinion of what works for you on your hardware. At worse it is a flawed, misleading comparison of MacOS and Windows 10. One can run a MacOS VM on a 64 core Windows 10 workstation faster a two core MacBook Air. So what? I think VM's for many users are a great idea. I never said they weren't. At the risk of repeating myself, I pointed out that using Windows10 on an old MacBook is an option - nothing more. This is a discussion about the Windows Beta - not the MacOS version of Scrivener after all.

8. CPU speeds are misleading, I agree completely. Thermal cooling is often a bigger factor on many laptops. Older MacBooks often had better cooling and as a result maintain their clock speeds higher and for longer than many newer MacBook models, even 2020 models. The latest MacBook Air has comparatively bad cooling and is not that good for intensive tasks as a result. It trades speed for size, weight and battery life - a good choice for many people. Furthermore unlike MacBooks since 2013, one can cheaply upgrade the memory on 2012 and earlier non-Retina Macbooks. A cheap 2011 MacBook Pro with upgraded RAM and SSD is a good value if you can live with the lower resolution screen and lower battery life. In any event, Scrivener is generally not CPU intensive and older hardware is more than adequate to run it without issues. Which was the point of my post - in the Scrivener Windows Beta Forum.

As far as I am aware nothing in my original post is factually incorrect as you have stated, You replied with opinion presented as fact, flawed logic, flawed comparisons and irrelevancies to what I was addressing in what seems to me to be a mostly an off topic defense of MacOS compared to Windows. I respect your view that MacOS is better than Windows 10, I'm sure it works well for what you do, but that is entirely beside the point

The original thread, is about the Scrivener Windows 10 Beta. I thought that I might help someone who appeared to be having speed issues with their 2011 Macbook. I apologize to the Forum because my post is not exactly on topic and I tend to be wordy as it is my nature. I wanted to convey some hard won knowledge (I repaired five slow MacBooks) and perhaps save someone some money by giving more life to their old hardware

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4237
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:27 pm Post

logaandm wrote:my post is not exactly on topic and I tend to be wordy as it is my nature.

A shorter post is more likely to be read in detail.
Think first, then write a short focused post, click Preview and read it yourself, edit and then post.t
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

lo
logaandm
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:57 am
Platform: Windows

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:59 am Post

lunk wrote:
logaandm wrote:my post is not exactly on topic and I tend to be wordy as it is my nature.

A shorter post is more likely to be read in detail.
Think first, then write a short focused post, click Preview and read it yourself, edit and then post.t



I am of the view the world is more complicated than the 30 second, superficial, ADD inspired click bait often thought clever these days. This view may not consistent with participation in Forums such as this, but there it is. Feel free not to read it.