I know you are, but what am I?

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garpu
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Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:46 pm Post

Jolanth Szatmary wrote:


I could be just the Mac version: In the menu bar, click Scrivener -> cmd click -> about Scrivener will produce a pop up window with selected quotes from farmous writers. It's my favourite procrastination method when I've forced myself to turn off my internet connection.[/quote]

Boo. Alt just closes the menu, and ctrl + About Scrivener just pops up the about scrivener window. :(
Slackware-current 64-bit, XFCE

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AmberV
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Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:53 pm Post

Sadly, I'm pretty sure that is a Mac-only Easter egg.

For Parity! :mrgreen:
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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Prometheus
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Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:27 am Post

devinganger wrote:
Prometheus wrote:Updates do not - and should not - mean reinstalling an entire application over and over and over again. I can't even think of anything I use that requires a fresh installation for updates


You may have limited experience, then. Under the hood, a lot more software than you think is doing uninstall/install updated version (all wrapped behind a pretty installer routine that hides it from you) rather than trying to patch existing binaries/files.

As long as the installer knows to save/reapply the appropriate settings from one version to the next, and you end up with the new version, who actually cares (other than the developers) about how it's done?


And you probably shouldn't assume things.

What I am referring to, quite obviously, is the USER being forced to uninstall something and reinstall it. And no, the generic things that average USER is updating are not going to be something that uninstalls the previous version completely and then installs the entire damn new version. Windows? Nope. Office? Nope. Steam? Nope. I'm running down the apps on this Windows machine I'm currently on, used by a regular Jane User, and there isn't a single thing on it that uninstalls the previous version completely before installing an update. Hell, even apps they have on their web sites, like Wordpress, aren't sitting there uninstalling everything and then reinstalling the new version. Do such things exist? Yes. Are they the norm? No.

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devinganger
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Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:17 am Post

Prometheus wrote:
devinganger wrote:Under the hood, a lot more software than you think is doing uninstall/install updated version (all wrapped behind a pretty installer routine that hides it from you) rather than trying to patch existing binaries/files.


What I am referring to, quite obviously, is the USER being forced to uninstall something and reinstall it. And no, the generic things that average USER is updating are not going to be something that uninstalls the previous version completely and then installs the entire damn new version.


You actually did not make that clear. And as has been stated multiple times, for MANY of the beta testers, we have not had to manually uninstall and install the Scrivener beta for a long, long time. The folks that have had to do so either missed the discussion early on in the beta forums about those directions being there for an excess of caution (and that they wanted more of us to test the automatic update process), or have had other factors on their configurations that prevented the auto-updates from happening and as such, were giving valuable testing feedback.

In a beta, you're still implicitly agreeing to be doing more testing and providing a higher level of feedback than you would for a normal release. And that may include doing more manual work than you would otherwise have to do. If you don't like it...don't use it. Just don't come at L&L and act like this is somehow something weird and unprecedented; I've done a lot of their betas now, and they are LOW IMPACT compared to most other betas I've done.
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Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

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theswede
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Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:12 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:What I am referring to, quite obviously, is the USER being forced to uninstall something and reinstall it.


Which is not the case with Scrivener.

And no, the generic things that average USER is updating are not going to be something that uninstalls the previous version completely and then installs the entire damn new version.


Actually yes. That is pretty much the norm with Windows software. But they do it behind the scenes, so there is no need to worry about it, and no way to know that they do it. But of course, it also depends on how you define "completely". Usually, directories and non-essential parts of the program (like README files and the like) are left alone, since they can be of further use. But the actual "app" will be removed before the new one is put in place.

Windows? Nope.


Most of it does that. Not all of it though.

Office? Nope.


Yup.

Steam? Nope.


Yup.

I'm running down the apps on this Windows machine I'm currently on, used by a regular Jane User, and there isn't a single thing on it that uninstalls the previous version completely before installing an update.


Most of them do. You just don't notice.

Hell, even apps they have on their web sites, like Wordpress, aren't sitting there uninstalling everything and then reinstalling the new version. Do such things exist? Yes. Are they the norm? No.


Comparing horses and oranges for funsies here.
Jesper Anderson SA5NEO
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Prometheus
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:09 am Post

theswede wrote:snipped.


Sorry, I forgot that this is a forum where nobody knows shit but you guys, JFC, you wonder why people don't feel welcome here.

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devinganger
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:29 am Post

Prometheus wrote:Sorry, I forgot that this is a forum where nobody knows shit but you guys, JFC, you wonder why people don't feel welcome here.


This is a forum where we value accuracy and people who can admit when they were wrong. You made some claims that were not valid, and you've been called on it. You can either learn the lesson, or be upset by getting called out. If it's the latter, then no, you probably won't feel welcome here.
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Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

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theswede
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:44 am Post

Prometheus wrote:Sorry, I forgot that this is a forum where nobody knows shit but you guys.

You spoke smack dab in the middle of my professional area of expertise. I have created more installers for Windows than I care to remember. Yes, sometimes, for simple programs, they simply overwrite what is already there, but for the most part, they will use the already installed "uninstaller" manifest to clean up dll's and the application to avoid both conflicts and accumulation of unused bits of app.

This is so fast and easy that it's barely noticeable, and will reduce support issues tremendously, which is money in the pocket. It makes no sense not to do it.
Jesper Anderson SA5NEO
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AmberV
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:45 pm Post

I don't think devinganger meant to suggest this, but just to make it clear, everyone is welcome here. Whether you feel welcome is up to you, but you don't have to pass some kind of test to hang out with us.

That said, the one thing we do request, repeatedly, is that you keep it civil. Prometheus, just about every time I see you in a thread it goes to fire, and comments like your recent posts in this thread are a study in why that might be. If you don't see the problems, maybe it is time to pick up a book on effective, non-combative communication skills; there is no shame in it, I've done it. Even (and perhaps even especially) if you are certain you're right, there are more effective ways to go about asserting it than what has been demonstrated.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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Prometheus
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm Post

The guy who thinks Windows and Office reinstall themselves in their entirety every time there's an update, along with all the other smug defenders you have are the culture you created and let fester here. Even your arrogant dig at me for my various pushbacks at things you should be pushing back demonstrates it. Before the usuals start diving in with their crap, I'll say this: it doesn't matter how "helpful" they are elsewhere. You let them have at new meat, daring to step out of line to voice concerns or frustrations, and why? Because it gives them an ego boost? It makes you feel good to have rabid defenders? Do you have any idea what that does to your brand?

I came here yesterday to look up an issue someone was having because they didn't want to post here, worried about getting some belittling, condescending crap in return. I'm done recommending Scrivener, I'm done using it myself. I know your defenders will say the same thing they always do, because you always let them. It may be good software, but it isn't good enough that people can't live without it.

You needn't ban me. I won't be back.

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theswede
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Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:35 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:The guy who thinks Windows and Office reinstall themselves in their entirety every time there's an update

Which is no-one, because that is a new claim. What they do is, they move the files they are about to overwrite into a backup folder (removing them from the application), and then install the new files.
Jesper Anderson SA5NEO
Computer scientist. Software engineer. Scifi writer. Scuba diver.