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pigfender
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Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:51 am Post

That link is funny for three reasons*
1) it's full to the brim with factual inaccuracies,
2) it makes the case against his argument (high ranking site, solid sales, etc) better than the one for it, and
3) the author either unknowingly or through design justifies the importance of his own role by assuming that his role is necessary for every field to the same degree (marketing of the type mentioned is *more* important, for example, when you are selling products that need differentiating amongst homogenous competitors and/or they are a non-essential consumable).

And a bonus fourth one: he sounds like a douche! I bet he wears pink polo shirts with the collar popped.

* humour is always better when you explain it.**
** that last footnote is funny because it isn't true.
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"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
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Ahab
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Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:25 am Post

So, the guy who couldn't figure out how to even open the program, or type into an email address support at lit-lat or whatever is a marketing expert?

The more I see of people, the better I like my chickens.

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pigfender
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Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:01 pm Post

Not 'marketing'... 'Wealth building strategies'! And he makes two or three 25 minute screencasts... a day!

He is my hero.
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"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
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SarsenLintel
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Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:33 pm Post

I didn't even read the whole thing - too much text. He should have just made a series of quick screencasts to get his message across... Image

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Wock
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:43 am Post

I actually had an education in marketing and graphic design and to the self proclaimed "marketeer" that wrote the Great Wall of Text trying to sell his pathetic services I have some advice.

(1) Hire a professional Graphic designer and web designer and update your website to something that looks like it was created this century. It looks like something that was all the rage when AOL 3.0 first released. I think I threw up in my mouth a little when the page loaded and I saw something that took me back to days of the 14.4k modem.

(2) Your call to action buttons are way to small, not thought out, and not placed well (I would have thought a marketing expert would know this since its one of the main marketing focuses of websites).

(3) Text size, member area and search should be separate from the main nav. This is a web style that came about in the early 2000's (see point 1).

(4) People do not like scrolling for half an hour when reading a 2,500 word essay on why only your style of marketing is good. Here is a basic hint in basic web design. Learn to make multiple pages and put a nav at the bottom. Reduce screen scrolling to a minimum and direct people to multiple pages. (This is a real basic web design 101)

(5) Your side nav is atrocious and way to cluttered. You should separate the site to sections. and the side nav should fit on the screen without having to scroll at all. If you are scrolling just to see a main side nav then fire the web designer or if you did it yourself hire a professional. This is your "store front" and right now it looks like a real bad flea market in the ghetto.

(6) Your right nav is more word vomit. Here is a hint. Learn to organize. Listing about every forum post on a right side nav makes the screen great for causing headaches and cross eyed watery fear inducing vomet comets. I know you are trying very hard to increase your web hits in hope that if you flood your navs with constantly updating info you might get a little better searches. Here is a hint. Driving your reader away with a great cluttered wall of text and the never ending scrolls will do more harm than the few extra search results you may scrape up. People do not like great walls of text and scrolling forever. Also your over cluttered under thought out right and left nav are causing your main page to scroll forever. (This is down right stupid. This is where you stand in the bathroom and look in the mirror and start slapping yourself and saying STUPID STUPID STUPID over and over again. It is that bad. Web designers across the world are groaning.)

(7) Trying to criticize a successful company in hopes to drive sales on your own services is rather pathetic and makes you look desperate. Like a cheap used car salesman trying to convince a single mom that her volvo isn't safe enough and she should trade it in on a chop topped gremlin with a speed shifter. Here is an idea. I am going to give you some free advice.

a) Go to school and actually learn some marketing. Especially focus on things like Commercial Design and especially web design and have a professional teach you on the importance of brand recognition, web design, site and nav layout, font usage, eye direction, the 3 second rule, and about 2 years worth of an associates degree worth of knowledge. That way you could at least attempt to look professional.

b) After you actually have some knowledge then completely tear your horrendous website down and rebuild it to actually look like a professional's website instead of something a kid built for cheese whiz and a 12 pack over the weekend. If you honestly think your site is this shiznit then I would highly recommend another career path. Maybe in the food service or pawn shop sector.

c) Update your "wealth of knowledge" especially when it comes to software. Money is not in "upgrades" anymore. Haven't been since broadband has been widely adopted. The money is in SUBSCRIPTION services and those come with FREE UPDATES. In order to update your "knowledge" of this you may want to look into this thing many people call "the cloud". And see why many of the big boys are adopting cloud services/subscription services. (you looked very dated when you give outdated advice as fact when actually its no longer the case).

d) Learn how to use a forum. Obviously from your writing you find things like reading and text difficult and mainly depend on video or icons and pointing and grunting. While you are touching up on your marketing education take some basic classes on internet 101 and things like PHPBB (which most people over the age of 6 know how to use). Here is where google and youtube can be your friend.

e) And last but not least. Learn two basic skills for basic internet use. One is Google. The second is Youtube. The reason why "screencasts" aren't as popular as you would hope is because of this free thing called Youtube. Most people who want a quick tutorial will turn to youtube.
Oh look here https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scrivener seven pages of videos... hmmmm Most are made by users but if videos is what you want well that took about 15 seconds....

In closing I would say this. Scrivener has grown very well. (It hasn't grown too fast nor has it grown two slow) I know you had some trouble it appears with the software, and with the forums, and with the internet, and with a few other things. But really? Writing an opinion article which in reality was a desperate sales pitch that screams (please please let me makes some videos and charge you money so I can pay my bills! No one is buying my stuff because youtube beat me to the punch!)

You are out of touch, out of date (your website and your advice scream this rather loudly), you obviously had very little training in Marketing, advertising and Design. (If you did you should demand a refund or pay better attention when you go back). Here is another hint. The number 1 rule in marketing is know your market. If you "knew" the Scrivener Market then you would know that the prime market is WRITERS and WRITERS are more used to READING things (You thought a 330 page manual was a bad thing?) READING things like a manual so we can go in depth to each feature or use so we can USE our primary tool. I would not want go through a video library for every single feature and of course making different ones for the Mac versus the Windows versions since there are differences and you don't want to mislead but I guess if you were trying to drum up sales of video making for yourself this would be a money making point.

I am saying: "Mr. North, look down at the sea. See those ships floating by with tons of money you are not making. See the people pointing and laughing at you? Get you a basic loan, go to a community college and get you at least some basic marketing and advertising education and for God's sake. Whoever designed your website fire them. A professional could rebuild it so you didn't look so late 90's in just an afternoon. Then maybe a few people who actually know what they are talking about just might take you seriously."
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Wock
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:58 am Post

And here is some helpful "Quotes" because they re much faster than some screen casts.
Beginner Mistakes to Avoid in website design.

Walls of Text
Web design is a wonderful medium that allows you to combine text, images, and other multimedia into an interactive experience. To that end, it’s not a good idea to turn a website into something that it’s not, like a tri-fold brochure or an information pamphlet. If you’re marketing yourself or a business, don’t present the site visitor with a huge wall of text on the first page. Instead, make the home page something very simple that explains exactly what the site is about. If they want to know more, they’ll dig in.


Mysterious and Complex Navigation
Navigation is probably one of the most difficult aspects of web design. In all my projects, I’ve spent quite a lot of time thinking about how all the screens flow together, how everything is labeled, what should be on its own page and what can be combined, and so on. If there’s any single word that can make a huge impact on your site’s usability, it’s probably something in the navigation.

Massive sites like Wikipedia or Facebook have millions of pages, but they all flow together in a stream of consciousness without overwhelming visitors. It seems effortless because they do such a great job. But if you’re just starting out, try to make projects with just a few pages. Be clear and explicit about what each page contains, then label it accordingly in your navigation. Mixing intentions makes things feel confusing.
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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pigfender
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:52 am Post

I actually much prefer to scroll down a long page of text than to click through multiple windows. I always assumed that the driver for that was not user experience but artificially improving pageviews stats; I had no idea that there were people out there who actually prefer it. Perhaps it's an American thing? You magazines are far more likely to have stories and articles abruptly stop and be "continued on page 134". British magazines are much nicer: we start an article and then let you read the whole thing without having to flick through anything.

Whoever designed your website fire them. A professional could rebuild it so you didn't look so late 90's in just an afternoon.

Hell, just use Wordpress and a free theme.
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"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
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nom
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:46 pm Post

KB wrote:But apparently I suck at marketing to the extent that I spend my days watching $50 notes float by in the gutter.


That link was hilarious! Is it published by The Onion? OMG, it must be!!

***REST OF POST REDACTED***
I wrote a detailed review of his review, but then remembered the old adage, "If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say it." After acting on that memory, there wasn't anything left. :roll:
Complete and utter NOMsense.
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vic-k
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:07 pm Post

's all free publicity... init? :?
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AmberV
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:59 pm Post

Count me in with the crowd that can’t stand when articles are broken up into “pages”. That’s just a ridiculous carry-over from magazines that has no business being on the Web, in a context where a display device can just as easily present to you a 300 page document as a 5 page document. Just give me the chunk of text and let me middle-click to let it drift slowly as I read. Whenever I come across an article that is split up like that, I hunt for a “Print” button (which usually has a nicer looking copy of the article anyway).

I always thought that was only done for the advertising anyway, especially since it only seems to really be commonly used on sites that have a postcard sized content area surrounded by a two square feet of advertising.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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garpu
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Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:47 pm Post

Hrm. Wouldn't it be more like £30 floating by with conversion rates the way they are?

pigfender wrote:And a bonus fourth one: he sounds like a douche! I bet he wears pink polo shirts with the collar popped.


Dude sounds kind of sad, actually. To quote my favorite movie: "And for what? For a little bit of money. There's more to life than a little money, you know. Don'tcha know that? And here ya are, and it's a beautiful day. Well. I just don't understand it."
Slackware-current 64-bit, XFCE

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Wock
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Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:27 pm Post

Splitting pages came early because of page load times. When you were on a 14.4 k modem loading 35 graphics and 3K words would take way to long so people started splitting pages up.

As Broadband as taken over page load times is almost non-existent concern now but now concerns are mobile devices. Take a page that is 3k words add a left and right nav that is super long and then scroll the page forever and look at it on phone. You will need to scroll left. Scroll right (if zoomed in) and scroll down forever. If you RSS that helps but the best is a fluid design that compensates automatically for such a small screen. The problem there is though now your page is about 6X longer and on a phone you have to scroll forever which means if you lose your place or want to get back up to the nav bar you have to start flicking your screen like an angry flea flicker which takes a lot of time and causes a user frustration. I read only 1K words of the 3K and scrolled down for a good bit. I want to to read another article. I either have to scroll back up or all the way down for a nav bar or hit the back button (leave the page) to find a nav then leave again (unless you have a floating nav which will irritate everyone).

An example would be imagine if every time you had to start you car you had to put the key in the ignition then get out of the car, open the trunk. Close the trunk, roll down the passenger window then back up again and then you could start the car. You would sell the car.

Navigation is what is vital in website design and that is where it differs from print somewhat because of the importance of navigation being easily accessible more so in digital media than in print. A bad GUI can kill a good product.

Think of it like this.

In the beginning people used scrolls. (Scrolling all text on one page) The only navigation was the beginning or end. If you wanted to find something you rolled the scroll up or down. The longer the scroll the longer it would take to roll up or down if you were looking for something or "rewinding fast forwarding". Then we used books (splitting content up so it is easy to move forward, backward, or jump right to a section by using page numbers, indexes, chapters, and tables of contents - early navigation) Then came digital books which tend to either mimic books exactly, are hybrid which use set page sizes but allow for continuous scrolling, or are fluid and will adjust to screen and device and allow custom settings. Alongside digital books also came web pages which tend to mimic digital magazines. Articles can be split, one long continuous article, jump around, all depending on the layout design but share one thing. They navigate different than a book because they are not one story on one subject (usually) but are a collection of stories, articles, and many times share page space with advertisements. BUT they still have one thing in common. Good ones are still easy to navigate and find the content you are looking for. If a user has to hunt for a navigation button if they are browsing through a webpage (like flipping through a magazine) and it takes more than a few seconds then the user is not going to find what they are looking for and is going to go somewhere else.

Digital Information for the common user has taken on the fast food mentality. They want it their way right away. Fast and convenient.

Now another example of communication would be the Cassette Tape (yes I had had hi-speed dubbing). The tape was awesome. Small, easy to carry, could store 30-45 minutes per side before having to flip the tape. This was like a scroll or continuous information. It played but in order to move forward or backward you had to press fast forward or rewind and wait. Then came the CD. You could play the whole thing unattended ( no side a or side b) You still had fast forward and rewind but you had one other neat addition. You could immediately skip to another song (The tape cassette with a modern nav). So the CD had 2 features that improved upon the tape. (1) No flipping sides just one long continuous play (2) The ability to jump to the next track without having to wait while you fast forwarded.

The tape is now pretty much non-existent. Just like the scroll was replaced by the book.

Now a real savvy web designer would realize that people come in different flavors, and when dealing with long bodies of text would split the pages up to manageable chunks BUT would also give a reader a choice. (usually a show all pages link or single page link) and give a link that would present a long article in one continuous page. That way the default is prioritizing better navigation by splitting the text up, but also offering readers another viewing option ( ye old scroll format). (then everyone is happy)

People love flexibility when it comes to digital media.

But why not make the nav the option and the scrolling page the default? You default on what you think the majority of people would want (knowing your market). The majority of people would prefer a book over a scroll or we would have scroll stores not book stores :-)

Also a web designer lives and dies by search results for a majority of customers. Split pages gives you a much better chance at reaching a broader audience than long continuous pages do. Especially if you split pages based on content or create new pages for articles (instead of putting all articles on one page).
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Jaysen
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Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:56 pm Post

A recent development that I have seen on a few sites is "show as a single page". As a person who prefers a single page, this feature wins my loyalty.
Jaysen

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AmberV
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Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:44 pm Post

Just about everything in your rant against long articles is really about the pitiful state of browser technology itself, not a problem with page design. Web pages should be providing content hooks that browsers can use to provide effective navigation. Navigation should be standard, 100% in the browser, and not some feature of the page that every designer has to replicate over and over themselves. Another large source for your rant seems to revolve around using a mobile phone to browse. Well, don’t be surprised if reading an article on a credit card sized screen with nothing but your finger to operate it, is awkward, but even in that substantial constraint, I can still envision features that would make life easier for everyone. There is a reader mode (which it sounds like you need to make more use of, for some of your gripes), that’s a start, but why not have an option for pagination, so that reading an article from the Web is like reading in Kindle.app? Why not make it so you can save that session and returning to it always does so where you left off (again just like Kindle.app), even set bookmarks in scroll or pagination mode, so you can return to a spot later? But the state of browser technology on mobile phones and tablets is so awful that there are separate programs for reading articles you find off the Web, like InstaPaper. Everything InstaPaper does, the browser should already be doing, and more. It should be a major part of its design concept to handle long pages.

So, no, I don’t think splitting up pages is under the remit of the content, and fingers should be pointed in the right direction if you get frustrated with a long article. Tap “Back” and lose your place? File a bug report with the browser software you’re using. That’s an inexcusable bug in a browser. Remembering where you were on the page when you navigated out is a core feature.

Anyway, returning to a context where one does have a decent browser—with such vital and basic functions as an End or PgUp key and a scroll bar available to it, and extensions that can make reading even easier—none of this is a problem. Then the problem becomes encountering sites that make you click on some little number “2” in tiny text in the middle of your read, and an inability to simply and effortlessly flick back to an earlier section to reference something you read three, no wait five? “pages” ago.

That’s the only annoying thing to me here, having to bother with a site’s navigation system just to read more than five paragraphs at once. If the only reason for that is to cater to people using postage stamps and/or a browser so dumbed down it doesn’t even have a scroll bar, to read pages, that doesn’t seem like a good argument to me. :)

A recent development that I have seen on a few sites is “show as a single page”. As a person who prefers a single page, this feature wins my loyalty.


Yup, and I’ll be honest, I often don’t visit sites that I know to use pagination with no alternatives. It’s not that I’ll leave once I’m there, if the article is good it’s good, but if I know a site uses that method and I see the article is hosted there, I often just won’t even bother, I’ll find another syndication that is running it, or read something else.
.:.
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monkquixote
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Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:24 am Post

I think Keith should send him a complimentary one of these:

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Ivan
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Writes anecdotal whimsy, misanthropic nonsense and black satire. Black Ant Sense Trophy, if you will. Or Miss Whimsy Dotes. Whatever. http://monkquixote.com