Scapple User Guide - Proof-Readers Welcome!

User avatar
KB
Site Admin
Posts: 19882
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:23 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Truro, Cornwall
Contact:

Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:41 pm Post

Heh, the whole thing is moot anyway, as I've completely rewritten the whole "What is Scapple?" section. :)
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

br
brookter
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:47 pm Post

Mac,

My project:

Stages 1 - 5: Planning
Stages 6 - 10: Doing
Stages 11 - 15: Submitting.

a) The early, planning stages are Stages 1 to 5.

b) The early planning stages are Stages 1 and 2. (The mid planning stage is 3, the late planning stages are 4 and 5).

The comma is necessary if you mean a).

Ma
Mac
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:28 am
Platform: Mac + iOS

Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:57 pm Post

KB wrote:Heh, the whole thing is moot anyway, as I've completely rewritten the whole "What is Scapple?" section. :)


And it was an interesting exchange of views. I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that I don't agree about the vampires. :lol:

Come what may, I'll be buying Scapple and telling everyone I know to buy it. As Shakespeare once observed, much ado about a comma.

Brookter ... Many thanks.

Bestest

Mac

User avatar
KB
Site Admin
Posts: 19882
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:23 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Truro, Cornwall
Contact:

Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:06 pm Post

Mac wrote:And it was an interesting exchange of views. I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that I don't agree about the vampires. :lol:


Oh, I'm not saying that younger vampires are definitely more uneducated - it was just a random example. (Because I'm sure you can't mean you disagree about the commas, although of course an author can do as he wishes - ba-dum! Sorry, couldn't resist.) :D

Come what may, I'll be buying Scapple and telling everyone I know to buy it.


Great, thanks!

And thanks for proof-reading, difference of opinion or not; much appreciated.

All the best,
Keith
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

User avatar
xiamenese
Posts: 3577
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:32 am
Platform: Mac
Location: London or Exeter, UK.

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:04 am Post

An interesting discussion indeed. And I admit to a modicum of pride in having succeeded in stirring things a bit!
:lol:
Mark
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
rMBP 13" (early 2015) 10.13.3, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSID
MBP17" (late 2011) 10.13, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSID
iPad Air 2, iOS 11, 64GB
Scrivener, Scapple, Nisus Writer Pro, Bookends …

User avatar
MimeticMouton
Posts: 8587
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 5:39 am
Platform: Mac + Windows
Location: city of rain
Contact:

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:09 am Post

xiamenese wrote:And I admit to a modicum of pride in having succeeded in stirring things a bit!

You're such a troublemaker! :) And I apologise for accusing you of blaming Americans for the needless prepositions (especially since it was Ioa's fault! ;)).
Jennifer Hughes
(MM for short)

User avatar
AmberV
Posts: 21575
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:30 am
Platform: Mac + Linux
Location: Santiago de Compostela, Galiza
Contact:

Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:13 am Post

Harrumph! 8)
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

User avatar
Juddbert
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:08 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Penzance, Cornwall, UK

Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:43 pm Post

MimeticMouton wrote:
xiamenese wrote:And I admit to a modicum of pride in having succeeded in stirring things a bit!

You're such a troublemaker! :) And I apologise for accusing you of blaming Americans for the needless prepositions (especially since it was Ioa's fault! ;)).


I was about to point a mocking finger and bemoan the inevitable Americanisation of English, but a quick check reveals that the eminent Trasky held the following view:

"It is not wrong to begin a sentence with And. Often this can be quite effective. But use it sparingly: doing it too often will make your prose irritating."

But...but...well. And that's my argument thoroughly shot. The ramifications of a secondary education still echoing down the years, I fear. Damn you, Eleven Plus. Damn you!

:? :wink:
Can't write right. Don't care neither. Er...either.

Scrivener 2.5 on  OS 10.9

User avatar
pigfender
Posts: 2548
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:25 am
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Cognitive dissonance
Contact:

Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:29 pm Post

I don't care what the grammar police have acquiesced to over the years, starting a sentence with "and" is grammatically incorrect. It is a conjunction; its use is to connect two elements of speech. If you feel the need to start a sentence with a conjunction, stop. Look slightly to the left. That full stop shouldn't be there. It should be an ellipsis instead.

The only exception I can think of that wouldn't cause me to think bad thoughts is where one person is finishing another person's sentence. Notice that they are still finishing someone else's sentence, not starting a new one.
Dave and John burst through the open door just in time to witness Phil removing the lid from the milk.
Dave panted hard to catch his breath. 'Don't use the milk. I think it's been tampered with.'
John nodded furiously. 'And it's skimmed. I mean, what's the point of skimmed?'
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

Image
http://www.pigfender.com | http://www.novelinaday.com

User avatar
Juddbert
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:08 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Penzance, Cornwall, UK

Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:01 pm Post

pigfender wrote:I don't care what the grammar police have acquiesced to over the years, starting a sentence with "and" is grammatically incorrect. It is a conjunction; its use is to connect two elements of speech. If you feel the need to start a sentence with a conjunction, stop. Look slightly to the left. That full stop shouldn't be there. It should be an ellipsis instead.

The only exception I can think of that wouldn't cause me to think bad thoughts is where one person is finishing another person's sentence. Notice that they are still finishing someone else's sentence, not starting a new one.

I must agree with that standpoint, but suppose that being grammatically incorrect is not necessarily being grammatically unacceptable. English, eh? :roll:
Can't write right. Don't care neither. Er...either.

Scrivener 2.5 on  OS 10.9

User avatar
KB
Site Admin
Posts: 19882
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:23 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Truro, Cornwall
Contact:

Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:16 am Post

I disagree - "and" can start a sentence in the right context. It's like how you were taught as a kid that you couldn't start a sentence with "but", only to find the rule is nonsense. *But* (heh), it's still a good rule to be taught, because it makes sure you never do it unnecessarily. And that's my final word on the matter. Natch.

The most important grammatical rule of all, however - and I'm glad to see Juddbert following this most sacred of laws - is to have a copy of RL Trask's Mind the Gaffe on your shelf and to listen to whatever he has to say. His word is law at L&L (I decreed it myself, and I have both won and lost arguments on grammar through reference to his revered pages). I can't tell you how sad I was to discover he died a few years ago.
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

da
dafu
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:33 am
Platform: Mac
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:40 am Post

Ooooh! This "and" stuff could get really contentious! Let's have at it, shall we?

Blither, blather, thought, thought. [extensive pause—far beyond ellipses] And, that thought, yeah, that one, causes this thought.

Or,

This croissant is flaccid. [He says]
And, it lacks butter. [she says]

:D

Dave

User avatar
pigfender
Posts: 2548
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:25 am
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Cognitive dissonance
Contact:

Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:18 am Post

KB wrote:I disagree...

Actually you did come up with *one* good example there (although, possibly by accident :wink: ):
KB, kinda wrote:"And" can start a sentence in the right context.


KB, sorta wrote:It's like how you were taught as a kid that you couldn't start a sentence with "but", only to find the rule is nonsense, *but* (heh) it's still a good rule to be taught, because it makes sure you never do it unnecessar[ily]... and that's my final word on the matter.


In the revised version above (only punctuation altered) you can see you've not actually started a sentence with a conjunction at all. You've just written a long unwieldy sentence with lots of conjunctions... and then incorrectly put in full stops where more suitable punctuation is available. :D

dafu wrote:[extensive pause—far beyond ellipses]

I don't care if the pause is a week long. If the next thing spoken begins with "and another thing", then the person saying it is simply acknowledging that the previous sentence wasn't finished (albeit tacitly acknowledging that they aren't, perhaps, the most quick witted of orators).

I do agree with your [he said][she said] finishing each other's sentence thing though. Although the fact that that we call it "finishing each other's sentence" should give us pause for thought!

Juddbert wrote:I... suppose that being grammatically incorrect is not necessarily being grammatically unacceptable. English, eh? :roll:

That, I will most humbly agree with. :D
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
"Piggy, I'm beginning to wonder if you are the best person to take advice from." Jaysen, 26 Sept 2014

Image
http://www.pigfender.com | http://www.novelinaday.com

User avatar
xiamenese
Posts: 3577
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:32 am
Platform: Mac
Location: London or Exeter, UK.

Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:00 am Post

At this point, I was going to stay out of the carnage ... :lol:

Actually, if I'd started my postgraduate linguistics course a couple of years earlier, I'd have been taught by Larry Trask, who was a lecturer at the Polytechnic of Central London. But — can't resist stirring things! — he left at the end of the academic year before I started to go to Liverpool University. He was much respected by the students in the year above me. He did come back and give a talk on the Basque language.

On the other hand, I'm glad I didn't start the year before I did ... there was a guy in that year who insisted on sitting in on our lectures on the Development of Linguistics and showing off his "superior" knowledge. I would have hated having to do my whole course in his company!

Mark
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
rMBP 13" (early 2015) 10.13.3, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSID
MBP17" (late 2011) 10.13, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSID
iPad Air 2, iOS 11, 64GB
Scrivener, Scapple, Nisus Writer Pro, Bookends …

User avatar
KB
Site Admin
Posts: 19882
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:23 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Truro, Cornwall
Contact:

Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:50 am Post

xiamenese wrote:On the other hand, I'm glad I didn't start the year before I did ... there was a guy in that year who insisted on sitting in on our lectures on the Development of Linguistics and showing off his "superior" knowledge. I would have hated having to do my whole course in his company!


A-ha, but are you glad you didn't have to be on a course with him, or that you didn't turn into him? :)

unnecessar[ily]


Argh, typing on an iPhone!

In the revised version above (only punctuation altered) you can see you've not actually started a sentence with a conjunction at all. You've just written a long unwieldy sentence with lots of conjunctions... and then incorrectly put in full stops where more suitable punctuation is available.


Er, no. And that ellipsis at the end is quite unacceptable! :)

I'm sorry, Mr Fender, but you are going to have to accept the final word of R.L. Trask on this one:

R.L. Trask - from Mind the Gaffe (The Penguin Guide to Common Errors in English) wrote:and It is not wrong to begin a sentence with and. Often this can be quite effective. But use it sparingly: doing so too often will make your prose irritating.


And (heh), in line with Trask's recommendations, I will concede that I would most likely avoid starting sentences with "and" as much as possible in formal writing. In informal writing (e.g. here), however, and in website copy and suchlike where catchiness is important, it is fine.

More from the much more fuddy-duddy Eric Partridge, in Usage and Abusage:

In general, avoid beginning a sentence with and: its use is only justified when a very effective addition is desired or when an arresting accumulation is to be concluded.


So, it is definitely something to be used sparingly outside of informal banter, but most definitely not wrong. :)

And (sorry, I just can't stop myself now) trust me, you don't want to get into a debate about grammar with our Jennifer, who, along with the redoubtable xiamenese, started this whole thing. :)

(I also wouldn't use so many emoticons in formal writing, but I wonder how many do find their way on to the pages of CVs these days.)
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."