Kickstarter to accelerate Windows version development?

User avatar
arthaey
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:21 am
Platform: Mac + iOS
Contact:

Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 am Post

KB wrote:One of the biggest factors, as has been mentioned upthread, is that it is no simple matter to train someone to understand the ins-and-outs of Scrivener so that they know it well enough to code it. It's a large app with a big codebase. [snip] For a developer to do a good job, they need to know not just what the different features are, but how they are integrated. They have to know all of the things that most users will never notice.

Could you tell us a little about your test suite? I've seen these good test coverage go a long to helping devs A) wrap their heads around what the heck the software is supposed to do, and B) provide regression tests to make sure they didn't accidentally break an obscure feature.

Not that throwing money or new devs at a codebase just as it's trying to wrap up a release is a good idea! But maybe after v3, more devs could pitch in to document the system better via more tests?

OTOH, maybe you have 100% test coverage and that still doesn't solve the problem. ;)

PS: don't actually strive for 100% test coverage, that way lies madness & diminishing returns. :)

lo
lometogo
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:08 am
Platform: Mac
Location: Shenzhen, China

Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:40 am Post

I feel your pain, OP, and that of all Scriveners Windows users.

Proof? I came into the Scrivener world via the Windows window. And the gods know, it's not easy software to learn (but SO WORTH it.) And I recall the thrill I'd get when I learned of some great undiscovered task Scrivener could perform. And then the despair when I discovered "Oh, sorry, that feature is only on the Mac version."

I finally bit the bullet and laid out the cash to buy a Mac and have never looked back. The Mac version is truly a marvel, and from what I read, it will offer heaps more with the new release.

I truly hope the Windows version, when it's finally ready, comes closer in functionality to the Mac version. Hang in there, baby.

pc
pcgeekesq
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:38 pm Post

Amcmo wrote:pcgeekesq voiced concern on learning MacOS. For what it's worth I can train a Win converter to solid productivity on Mac in less than half a day.

I have used a Mac before, it's just been a while. The last one I used was a Macintosh 512K, around 30 years ago.

I don't think learning MAC is going to be a problem, and I was pleased to learn my Office 365 subscription allows both PC and Mac installs, up to a total of five. As long as the Mac mini drive the HDMI port of my 4K monitor (the PC is using the DP port), I'm set.

br
brookter
Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:30 pm Post

It won't be a problem — if you're the sort of person who isn't afraid to click around a bit to find out how things work. Most of it is fairly easy to grasp and it's quite difficult to break things.

Couple of things which I remember fooled / irritated me till I got used to them.

In Finder (the File Explorer), to open or run a program / file etc you use cmd-down arrow — Enter renames the file instead.

And if you use keyboard shortcuts you'll miss Windows' automatic alt-letter combinations to walk through menus. Mac programs don't have this: either a shortcut is provided within the program by the developer or you have to roll your own. (Actually, there is a way to walk through the menus, but it's not quick or helpful, so I never do.)

It's easy enough to create your own, but the simplicity of the Windows shortcut method is the one thing (really, it is just about the only thing) I miss about Windows, even after 12 years on Macs.

User avatar
rdale
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:07 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: St. Louis, MO
Contact:

Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:13 pm Post

brookter wrote:It's easy enough to create your own, but the simplicity of the Windows shortcut method is the one thing (really, it is just about the only thing) I miss about Windows, even after 12 years on Macs.

Oddly, I rarely use that when at a Windows computer, because I often can't remember *where* a menu item is, or *what* letters/words that item starts with, so I don't know where to navigate to. For that reason, on a Mac, I don't often navigate the menus with a mouse either.

I've grown addicted to the Help->[search field] function that almost all Mac apps have in their menus. Type a word that's in a menu item, and it will show up as an item in the results list. Arrow down, and it will show you where in the menu it is. Hit enter, and that menu item will be selected. I wish *that* was a built-in Windows feature.
FKA: robertdguthrie
AKA: R Dale Guthrie, Robert, Mr. Obscure, and "Oh, it's you again".

br
brookter
Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:22 pm Post

Yes that's a good feature and I use it a lot too. There are lots of good points about the Mac's flexibility with keyboards but I do miss the old alt-thing-whatsit. Much quicker to scan the menus with that than use the NastySqueakyThing.

pc
pcgeekesq
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:44 am Post

brookter wrote:It won't be a problem — if you're the sort of person who isn't afraid to click around a bit to find out how things work. Most of it is fairly easy to grasp and it's quite difficult to break things.


I expect to only use Scrivener, Office, and Macrium Reflect (for backups to my NAS) on the Mac, and I hope to not see much difference between those programs compared to their Windows version. As to breaking things, I mentioned backups. :mrgreen:

Over the course of my life I've used a lot of operating systems, the usual like DOS and Windows, various flavors of UNIX (ran some Linux at home for a while), whatever the CDC7600 and IBM 360/67 used to use, and some esoteric stuff like the Lisp-based OS used on 1980s-era on Symbolics machines. I'll be okay.

My wife authorized the expense of the Mac. Now I'm just waiting to see if the rumored October Mac Mini update actually happens. An iMac isn't a good option, the five monitors on my work machine take up too much of the desk. I'll hook the Mac to the other input of the 32" 4K monitor, and maybe to one of the 24" 2560x1440 ones as well.

BTW, before becoming a patent attorney and aspiring writer, I spent 30 years as an computer HW and SW engineer, including over a decade at Intel designing microprocessors. So, not a technology novice. :wink:

br
brookter
Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:56 am Post

Then it will indeed be a doddle. Enjoy...

I'm wa{i,n}ting to upgrade my iMac but it's only six years old and stubbornly refuses to stop doing what I want it to do acceptably quickly.

I hope you're right about the Mini refresh -- but that's been a rumour for the last three years at least.

Am
Amcmo
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:59 am
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Sunshine Coast Australia

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:58 am Post

Pcgeekesq, if you spent a decade designing for Intel I’ve probably used the fruit of your labour in designs.

My software experience and hardware support goes back to the IBM series 1 (next time you younger ones think your 512 Gb backup takes too long try the series 1 5 x 8” floppy in a cartridge backup that used to take all night to back up a few MB), through CP/M, DOS COBOL, Fortran etc so similarly long in the tooth.

It’s a bit old but this site has the right idea on the Mac Mini. http://applehq.news/open-letter-apple-mac-mini

br
brookter
Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:54 am Post

Are we doing 'who had the slowest most expensive disk drives' (paid for yourself section)?

Plus 3 for the Acorn Electron -- it cost me about £220 in 1983 (the computer itself only cost £299) and let me use 3.5 floppy disks -- yes, 3.5"! None of your old fashioned 5 ¼" antiques. This was a cutting-edge modernity godsend compared to the agony of using cassette tapes.

My first three disks cost £15. If I bought double sided versions (extra of course), I could fit 640k on them. I think we're all agreed that no-one could possibly need any more storage than that.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... lus3UG.pdf.

You tell t'young kids of today that, and they won't believe you...

[Yes, I know someone will top this with punch cards, or with having to etch the data bit by bit onto the platter by hand with a chisel, but still, it was 34 years ago and it brings home just how much money I've wasted on kit which didn't last more than a year or two before it was obsolete. And I've enjoyed every penny...]

Hu
Hugh
Posts: 2342
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:05 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: UK

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:10 am Post

brookter wrote:
I hope you're right about the Mini refresh -- but that's been a rumour for the last three years at least.


I hope so too. It seems to me that it would be foolish of Apple to kill the Mini line; if a user is transitioning from Windows on the desktop and therefore already has a monitor, mouse and keyboard, it's the obvious way to enter the Mac universe at relatively low cost. But of course I have no idea of Mini sales figures!
'Listen, some quiet night, when you've shirked your work that day. Do you hear
that distant, almost inaudible clicking sound? That's one of your
competitors, working away in the night in
Paris or London or Erie, PA.'

pc
pcgeekesq
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:44 pm
Platform: Windows

Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:20 am Post

brookter wrote:Are we doing 'who had the slowest most expensive disk drives' (paid for yourself section)?

Plus 3 for the Acorn Electron ... let me use 3.5 floppy disks -- yes, 3.5"! None of your old fashioned 5 ¼" antiques.

I used 8" floppies back in the day. You had to be careful which brand you bought: some brands had soft coatings, and the magnetic material would wear off. That ruined the disk and caked the heads on the drive, which would then tend to damage other floppies unless you cleaned it.

Before then, I wrote my first computer program in 1974, and stored it on paper tape using an ASR-33 teletype.

br
brookter
Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:39 am Post

Memories... I didn't use computers at work until the end of the eighties, so I was restricted to what I bought myself and so didn't come across 8" disks. And at every stage we looked at the new kit and thought how clever and advanced it was. Just as I do now.

jo
joShu
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:10 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:49 pm Post

At the risk of adding frustration to the embers, and my intent is only positive, here is my outsider's perspective:
I was thinking of trying Scrivner out, but after seeing this thread about lagging Windows development I have changed my mind.

I think my Word and Excel set up for writing is pretty slick (I use a lot of default features like navigation panes and section headers but it can be endlessly customized and automated as well) but my curiosity was rekindled about Scrivener, having heard many good things.

I do occasionally run MacOS inside a virtual machine on my Surface Pro, and it runs okay there, so I suppose I could just run Mac Scrivener in the VM when I would want to use a missing feature, but that seems weak. My Word/Excel setup, btw, runs across 3 screens from my Surface and 2 adjacent screens from external MouseWithoutBorders PCs.

I will check back on Scrivener in the future, as I have done in the past, but for now I will stick with what I have.

Best wishes,

Joe

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:25 pm Post

joShu wrote:At the risk of adding frustration to the embers, and my intent is only positive, here is my outsider's perspective:
I was thinking of trying Scrivner out, but after seeing this thread about lagging Windows development I have changed my mind.

I think my Word and Excel set up for writing is pretty slick (I use a lot of default features like navigation panes and section headers but it can be endlessly customized and automated as well) but my curiosity was rekindled about Scrivener, having heard many good things.

I do occasionally run MacOS inside a virtual machine on my Surface Pro, and it runs okay there, so I suppose I could just run Mac Scrivener in the VM when I would want to use a missing feature, but that seems weak. My Word/Excel setup, btw, runs across 3 screens from my Surface and 2 adjacent screens from external MouseWithoutBorders PCs.

I will check back on Scrivener in the future, as I have done in the past, but for now I will stick with what I have.

Best wishes,

Joe

Before moving to Win Scivener, I used OneNote & Excel & Word for writing fiction. (I still sometimes use Excel to create detailed timelines for plotting.) So I have some idea of where you're coming from, although I never got into automating Office because I found Scrivener. :)

When Scrivener 3 for Windows is released at some point next year, the Mac & Windows versions will then have "feature parity"*. Of course the new Win features will be a good thing, but some folks have made such a big deal out of Win Scriv lagging behind Mac and I really don't understand their perspective. None of the extra Mac features seem like showstoppers. As it stands now, the current version of Win Scriv 1.9.7 offers a much better solution/toolbox for *my* workflow than MS Office. YMMV.

After Scriv 3 is released for Windows, you may want to give the free trial a go. I think you'll be surprised at what it can do out of the box. If nothing else, it might give you some ideas for customizations you can do on your Office setup.

* The software frameworks that Scrivener leverages on Mac and Win are different, so my expectation is there will always be some minor differences in functionality between Mac and Win versions. I assume some people will complain about that too. :(