RTF with footnotes still crashes Word

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Amaru
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Thu May 10, 2007 8:33 pm Post

Fantastic beta. My only qualm is that my dissertation chapters (4 so far, with many foonotes) seem to be trapped in Scrivener. When I export a chapter, the resulting RTF file crashes Word. I would love to be able to open it with Pages, but, alas, Pages ignores foonotes.

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AmberV
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Thu May 10, 2007 8:43 pm Post

It is a hefty download, but you could give the free NeoOffice a try. It supports footnotes, and using that you could probably export to a DOC format.
.:.
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KB
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Thu May 10, 2007 9:03 pm Post

Please keep bug reports for the beta confined to the beta thread rather than creating separate topics for them.

Could you please send me the project? Have you tried exporting with different options (e.g. with no footnotes) to try honing down on what is causing the crash?

Keith

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Amaru
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:54 pm Post

I didn't know where should I post this comment, but this thread seems the right place.

I just finished my dissertation, and I was in the process of exporting it to RTF to have BookEnd format citations and produce the bibliography, then to load it in MS Word for a conversion into a DOC format, to finally open and format in Pages. I had to to this long route because: 1. I like the look of documents printed in Pages, and 2. I use footnotes, which Pages doesn't import.

It's not surprising that the only piece of software that gave me problems was MS Word. It would crash right after opening the RTF file. Originally, I believed that the footnotes were the problem. But, after a number of tests, I found the real culprit: MS Word does not handle gracefully the advanced type capabilities embedded in OS X--things such as real small caps, or kerning, for instance.

So, if you use any of those type attributes anywhere but your text documents (in folder's text, for instance), MS Word will crash after opening the exported RTF file. Since I have my dissertation organized by chapter, and section, I went through each chapter and section folder, changing the font attributes to default. That solved the problem.

I just want to use the opportunity to thank Keith. Scrivener has made the writing of my dissertation so much easier and enjoyable.

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Lord Lightning
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:01 am Post

Just another thought Amaru. Are you using Version 11.3.5 (070413) of Word?

It is the latest version and perhaps you might need to update Word.

Also, it may help to do a single chapter at a time.

Worth a try.
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Amaru
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:22 am Post

Lord Lightning wrote:Just another thought Amaru. Are you using Version 11.3.5 (070413) of Word?
Also, it may help to do a single chapter at a time.


Yes. Prompted by Keith, I downloaded the latest version 11.3.5 (070413) to no avail. I also tried exporting one chapter at a time with the same negative results. The trick was to eliminate font attributes.

MS Word doesn't seem to know how to handle types other than True Type. With Open Type, for instance, Italics get really weird, and kerning is really fake kerning. This is probably due to the font management component built in in MS Word--that was something positive at the very beginning, when fonts as we know them were not existent in the OS yore, but now the built-in everything is a hindrance.

Why do I use true small caps, and kerning, and all that in Scrivener? Because styles are so easy to set up and so convenient in OS X that you can write almost with the same kind of formating you'll use to print. Then, the production of the manuscript is really a breeze. On the other hand, I'm a long time fan of old typography and like my documents printed with nice fonts--fonts that know the difference between fake and true small caps, fonts that do ligatures, and fonts that have typographer's digits.

I'm praying for the day in which I have a word processor that has the page layout and font management capabilities of Apple's Pages, but with the advantage of opening MS Word old files, including footnotes.

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KB
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:37 pm Post

Interesting information - thank you for taking the time to update on this issue. I'm glad (relieved) this is a Word/RTF issue and nothing specifically to do with Scrivener.
Best,
Keith

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ptakeuchi
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Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:46 pm Post

This might be related to the above. Oftentimes when I need to print something out quickly, I prefer to use Word, so I open a bunch of documents as a Scrivening, highlight all the text and copy then paste into a blank Word document.

I don't know what comes with the text I copy (5 or more pages), if it is just RTF formatted text or what, but it makes Word sluggish--scrolling, saving, etc., as if some calculatioins or link-checking is being done in the background.

I find that if I save the Word document as text or export to RTF and open in Text edit and convert it there to plain text then bring it again into Word then apply my font choice, everything's copacetic. Of course I lose my text attributes like bold and italic, etc.

I'm guessing that things would run smoother if I actually exported the Scrivening using the Export menu, but I really haven't had a chance to explore all the daunting options there yet. Or if there were a quick option to export highlighted text in Scrivener, that might make things easier, since I don't have to go to the trouble of checking which documents I want to export and can export parts of longer documents without breaking them up.

I also see that there is a choice to copy without annotations or footnotes and on the Word side, I can use Paste Special and choose RTF, plain text, etc.

So what procedure would you recommend for the cleanest, speedy copy/paste into Word?

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Amaru
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Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:37 pm Post

ptakeuchi,
Word implemented from the beginning their own font management engine. But what was an advantage in the prehistoric age of MS-DOS has become a hindrance in OS X, which has its own built-in font management. Unfortunately, they do not work together.

If you are printing a draft, there is no real need to export to Word. You can produce very good draft print-outs by using the Export / Print option in Scrivener.
Last edited by Amaru on Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KB
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Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:48 pm Post

I'm afraid I can't take any blame for Word's slowness! :)

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ptakeuchi
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Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:32 pm Post

Amaru,
Thanks for pointing out the lameness of Word's font handling. I do hate Word, but I've gotten used to it and many magazines that I submit to request DOC files.

I suspect the more I use Scrivener and its Export function, the more I will figure out this problem. Probably using TTF rather than OTF may make Word happier.

Also MS Office will have an update some time in the fall, presumably to tie in with Leopard. Perhaps some of these legacy font issues will be addressed then--unlikely, but one can always hope.

Paul

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Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:02 pm Post

Perhaps I missed someone dropping the hint, but Word can be accelerated by reducing active fonts and, very important, disabling the live word count. The latter can make a huge difference. If you need the word count you can either toggle the feature back on, access the document summary, or execute a macro.

Sorry, this isn't quite on track but many of us unfortunately have to deal with Word on the Mac. Lately I've been using Word 2007 in VMWare and that is a pretty good solution to make use more modern code. But you need a fast Mac and RAM to swim in.

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:22 pm Post

What you came across are the well known, by MS, and never to be death with...issues with kernel control. They are...old, as in late 1980s old. The best program to deal with those was (is) Word Perfect.

We have recently come across those gremlins at the paper. The issue also rears it's ugly face across versions of Word...nope XML does not carry well from version to version and backwards compatibility is not their middle name. One of these centuries HTML 5.0 will be a true global standard (don't try to save on HTML on word, oh the crap it inserts) but...I digress.

We had the problem from Mac 08 version to Win 07 version. Took three days of reading Ars Technica and other techie blogs. I got word 07 on my Nettie, so while I particularly do not like it, and prefer a Mac, that is now the writing platform. My editor is all but technically informed.

I will now date myself, but Windows is not done until Lotus don't run...longstanding issue with MS, putting hurdles in the way of true compatibility.

Oh and congrats on the thesis. I wrote mine the old fashioned way with stacks of well...paper and index cards.
The past if prologue...